Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

[Al M.]

The manual of the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, version 1, states in the list of DAC connections:

9 Power Cord.
Plug the end of the supplied IEC cord in here. You can also use fancy audiophile types, but they won’t really do anything—what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?

(End quote.)

What say ye? What would be an argument against such technical reasoning?

(I assume the opinion can be attributed to engineer Mike Moffat since he is the designer of the DAC.)

 

[VLS]

The manual of the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, version 1, states in the list of DAC connections:

9 Power Cord.
Plug the end of the supplied IEC cord in here. You can also use fancy audiophile types, but they won’t really do anything—what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?

(End quote.)

What say ye? What would be an argument against such technical reasoning?

(I assume the opinion can be attributed to engineer Mike Moffat since he is the designer of the DAC.)

I’ll bite...

What if the stuff in your walls isn’t crap but a dedicated high amp line? Than I’d argue that following that with a well made, high current PC makes sense, and at least in my system this made an audible improvement in dynamics.

 

[Al M.]

I’ll bite...

What if the stuff in your walls isn’t crap but a dedicated high amp line? Than I’d argue that following that with a well made, high current PC makes sense, and at least in my system this made an audible improvement in dynamics.

Thanks for the reply. Is your dedicated high amp line of the same quality in terms of conducting material and shielding as your audiophile power cord, or is its just good industrial grade copper with regular shielding? If the latter, then why should continuation with a regular well-made stock power cable, presumably of a similar quality, be any worse than continuation with an audiophile power cord?

 

[asindc]

The manual of the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, version 1, states in the list of DAC connections:

9 Power Cord.
Plug the end of the supplied IEC cord in here. You can also use fancy audiophile types, but they won’t really do anything—what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?

(End quote.)

What say ye? What would be an argument against such technical reasoning?

(I assume the opinion can be attributed to engineer Mike Moffat since he is the designer of the DAC.)

Have you tried “fancy audiophile” type power cords in your system and compared them to the stock power cords included with your components?

 

[VLS]

Thanks for the reply. Is your dedicated high amp line of the same quality in terms of conducting material and shielding as your audiophile power cord, or is its just good industrial grade copper with regular shielding? If the latter, then why should continuation with a regular well-made stock power cable, presumably of a similar quality, be any worse than continuation with an audiophile power cord?

Well, the thing I was after was maximizing current delivery to my amp and minimizing the very obvious voltage sag due to various appliances cycling on and off, as opposed to noise filtering.

To that end, I put in a standard 30 amp Romex, and good hospital grade outlets, which purportedly make a better better contact than the stock kind. While my amp does not draw 30 amps steady state, I do believe that overspecifying the AC line minimizes its impedance to momentary current draws which can be quite high.

As far as the PC itself, I found it hard to find a generic one which was suitably overbuilt, and as a result selected an “audiophile” alternative (Shunyata) which claims to address these very instantaneous current draw issues. In a hobby replete with pseudoscience, I find Shunyata’s DTCD claims at least not unreasonable. Some of their other stuff maybe less so IMHO.

I do have a Denali as well as Shunyata PCs for my source components connected to this same dedicated line. The Denali does help. But I will confess that I have not A/B-ed the PCs again generics.

 

[PeterA]

The manual of the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, version 1, states in the list of DAC connections:

9 Power Cord.
Plug the end of the supplied IEC cord in here. You can also use fancy audiophile types, but they won’t really do anything—what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?

(End quote.)

What say ye? What would be an argument against such technical reasoning?

(I assume the opinion can be attributed to engineer Mike Moffat since he is the designer of the DAC.)

Al, this made me chuckle because I was criticized for daring to use that very word, "FANCY", to describe very nice, expensive connectors and other aspects of some audiophile power cords. I think some found the word offensive. I explained my use of the term in another thread somewhere on WBF. It's funny that Mike Moffat, or whoever wrote that Schiit Yggdrasil DAC manual, used the very same term, probably for the same reasons.

 

[Folsom]

Try making a cable out of Romex... seriously, have fun. I have seen it done. They’re extremely hard to move, and because of that they will come loose from the plugs (internally). But also you aren’t as likely to maintain the relationship with the ground in the middle as cleanly.

What really matters though is proximity. The issue with cables from the wall to the equipment is that they are the ones very close to your signal wires. The Romex projects a bigger field from neutral and hot, but suppresses ground interaction. Those big fields interfere with your signal cables and maybe more. So that is why cables have some kind of twist with all three conductors to help minimize these fields.

Also JPS labs sells twisted in wall wire that can be used to help reduce fields as well.

We all know they sound different, for better or worse...

 

[PeterA]

I use JPS Labs In-Wall cable to supply the power to my system. Three (3) dedicated runs of equal length on three dedicated 20 Amp circuits, same phase, terminated with Furutech IEC connectors, running straight into each amp and a front end power distribution box, thus bypassing all outlets.

I have recently begun discussions with my electrician about installing four (4) new dedicated circuits, on the same phase, using 10 gauge stranded wire to four Hubbell brand industrial/hospital grade isolated ground receptacles, this time using standard, industrial grade power cords.

Both options will remain available for testing to see which sounds better. I look forward to comparing the two schemes. Perhaps some folks with experience and knowledge about supplying power to systems and the value of power cords can contribute to this discussion.

 

[Folsom]

Peter I thought you were using stock cables? Now they are Furutech on the end of JPS wire???

 

[PeterA]

Try making a cable out of Romex... seriously, have fun. I have seen it done. They’re extremely hard to move, and because of that they will come loose from the plugs (internally). But also you aren’t as likely to maintain the relationship with the ground in the middle as cleanly.

What really matters though is proximity. The issue with cables from the wall to the equipment is that they are the ones very close to your signal wires. The Romex projects a bigger field from neutral and hot, but suppresses ground interaction. Those big fields interfere with your signal cables and maybe more. So that is why cables have some kind of twist with all three conductors to help minimize these fields.

Also JPS labs sells twisted in wall wire that can be used to help reduce fields as well.

We all know they sound different, for better or worse...

Folsom, thanks for joining the discussion. I would think that heavy gauge stranded wire would be more flexible and appropriate than Romex for such a task.

 

[PeterA]

Peter I thought you were using stock cables? Now they are Furutech on the end of JPS wire???

I've made so many changes lately, my last post was a bit sloppy. More precisely, what I described is what I had been using for years. The amps are still set up that way, but I had done some experiments with stock cords versus three brands of audiophile cords, and decided to replace the three front end cords with stock and then not use the distribution box. Right now, those three stock cords are going into an extension cord into a non-dedicated outlet. I prefer the stock cords and extension cord into the regular outlet over what I had. But I think I can do better. So, soon I will be able to do the comparison I describe above if I reinsert the power distribution box which was hooked up to my JPS/Furutech direct connection. With that in place, I preferred my stock power cords also. I only have three of these JPS/Furutech circuits but five pieces of gear that need power, so without the front end distribution box, it's a bit of a mis-match for now.

 

[Folsom]

You know the ground loops are bigger between gear when they're all on separate circuits... I would never run my front end on a bunch of different circuits. Amps only if they're serious monsters would I use a separate one for, but I'd prefer a subpanel with big wire to it to reduce the ground loops, feeding all the stereo sockets including large amp service.

I'd just put hospital/hubbell grade sockets on the end of the JPS wire at the wall, and be done if there's no good subpanel option that could have larger wire ran to, and then JPS to the sockets. If I got a smaller amp (than you have) at some point I'd just one one socket to a distro box (without any fancy plated stuff in it).

 

[PeterA]

Folsom, I also discussed a separate subpanel with my electrician. He is looking into that option. Thanks for the comments.

 

[tima]

As far as the PC itself, I found it hard to find a generic one which was suitably overbuilt, and as a result selected an “audiophile” alternative (Shunyata) which claims to address these very instantaneous current draw issues. In a hobby replete with pseudoscience, I find Shunyata’s DTCD claims at least not unreasonable. Some of their other stuff maybe less so IMHO.

Calin Gabriel will tell you that from the component's point of view it sees the power cord first.

 

[tima]

I've made so many changes lately, my last post was a bit sloppy. More precisely, what I described is what I had been using for years. The amps are still set up that way, but I had done some experiments with stock cords versus three brands of audiophile cords, and decided to replace the three front end cords with stock and then not use the distribution box. Right now, those three stock cords are going into an extension cord into a non-dedicated outlet. I prefer the stock cords and extension cord into the regular outlet over what I had. But I think I can do better. So, soon I will be able to do the comparison I describe above if I reinsert the power distribution box which was hooked up to my JPS/Furutech direct connection. With that in place, I preferred my stock power cords also. I only have three of these JPS/Furutech circuits but five pieces of gear that need power, so without the front end distribution box, it's a bit of a mis-match for now.

You say you are using stock cords, which I take to mean those that come with the component. So you gave up the Ching-Cheng?

 

[PeterA]

You say you are using stock cords, which I take to mean those that come with the component. So you gave up the Ching-Cheng?

I'm using three Ching Cheng cords now and will try five total once my outlets are installed. The stock cords on my four Pass Labs boxes are Ching Cheng. I just referred to all of my Ching Cheng as stock, but I guess there is a distinction.

 

[tima]

I meant the Ching Cheng cords from David. Are the stock Pass cords the same as those?

 

[Al M.]

Calin Gabriel will tell you that from the component's point of view it sees the power cord first.

Which is a statement that makes no sense. I doubt other engineers would agree with it. Unless his power cords engage in active filtering of noise. Do they, and if so, has this been verified by measurements?

 

[tima]

Calin Gabriel will tell you that from the component's point of view it sees the power cord first.

Which is a statement that makes no sense. I doubt other engineers would agree with it. Unless his power cords engage in active filtering of noise. Do they, and if so, has this been verified by measurements?

Al, I'm not here to defend Gabriel, he's fully qualified to do that himself. But your declarative statement that his claim makes no sense along with your follow on sentences do nothing to make a contrary case. I'm confident you are capable of that. Your argument is with CG.

Here is an excerpt from one of his many papers on the Shunyata site.

Power Cord Misconceptions

MISCONCEPTION #1: AC power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system.

Answer: Actually, the component sits between two power conductors: the hot and the neutral. AC power oscillates (alternates) back and forth at a 50-60hz rate. So power does not pour into the component at all. The component’s power supply is within a complex network of wires and connectors. Due to their obvious proximity, ALL of the wire and connectors can and do affect the performance of the component’power supply.


MISCONCEPTION #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can’t possibly make any difference.

Answer: The PC is NOT the last 6 feet as stated in #1 and the local current and EM effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component. The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. The further a noise source is from a component, the less of an impact it will have on the components power supply. The high-frequency noise sources that have the greatest impact on audio and video performance are the system components themselves — which are usually all in close proximity of one another and all emit radiated fields of high-frequency noise. A well designed power cord can act as a noise-isolated extension of the primary winding of a component’s power supply and will help isolate the power supply from the fields of radiated RF and EM noise energy that is ever present in all electronics systems.

https://shunyata.com/2016/06/27/power-cord-misconceptions/

 

[PeterA]

I meant the Ching Cheng cords from David. Are the stock Pass cords the same as those?

The ends look slightly different. Different color and shape.