Audiophile Societies - A True Story

NorthStar

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ack

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microstrip

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ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
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Did you listen to MQA?

Do you think that companies such as WADAX, DCS or MSB would spend money developing it for their top units if it was simply a "lie"?

A resounding Yes from me. Give the market what it thinks it needs. I am still waiting for the power cord with adjustable voltage gain.
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 11, 2013
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Yes it is. But it does sound better than cd steaming as a whole
Now what is better is where the lie starts
I scan some of my downloads it’s horrifying what I see
But it does make feel better to know it’s why some of the messed ones I don’t like. We are surrounded but false hood
 

microstrip

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Al M.

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Give the market what it thinks it needs. I am still waiting for the power cord with adjustable voltage gain.

Hehe
 

Al M.

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DaveyF

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Thanks for posting this exchange, Bob. I can see that the demonstrator would be upset if he had no foreknowledge of the fact that there was equipment being utilized to verify his claims...without his knowledge. But here's the thing, if ( IF) the exhibitor's claims are completely factual, then I would also think that the particular demonstrator would actually encourage verification of his exhibit.
I have on a few occasions witnessed some of the manufacturer's reps who have come to our audio society meeting being grilled by some of our more technical minded members. The folks that get the most scrutiny are usually the cable guys. Problem is that they typically default to a few standard justifications. None of these justifications actually answer in any real technical terms the questions being answered!
Reading the various responses by Bob Levi, I am left less than impressed....sure he wants to protect the sanctity of his group, but I think it is clear that he should be re-thinking his position if he has invited a film flam man to the party. ( Believe me, there are seemingly never ending types who fit this bill in our hobby ( unfortunately IME, many of them are in the cable side of the biz:( ), IMHO pathetic!)
 

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
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The truth.

Lies and snake oil are anathema to happiness in this hobby.

I applaud Bob for posting this.

Dear Al,

Were you to converge on any faith-based congregation, health-food shop, gym, mental-health practitioner, motivational speaker conference, wedding chapel or simply the home of any average person watching the news or posting on Facebook, I think you would perhaps find that lies and snake oil are not only consumed by billions each week, but are done so willingly, and often at very little detriment to their overall quality of life.

Happiness and "the truth" often have little if anything to do with one another.

Best,

853guy
 

Al M.

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Happiness and "the truth" often have little if anything to do with one another.

Perhaps often, but not always. The truth can be useful to those willing and able to embrace it, and lead to more happiness, or to a faster path towards happiness. For others, no harm done by truth anything other than them perhaps becoming a little upset, if at all. So why not expose it?

***

Of course, you can have the relativistic stance that there is no such thing as truth. As a scientist I oppose such a view. On the other hand, I don't believe that as of yet all phenomena in audio can be explained by science, certainly not in the simplistic manner that many engineers want us to believe.

On the subjective level, truth can matter or not, and personal views can color how we perceive truth. And often truth is elusive and a matter of great debate. Yet there is truth.

Truth does not need to be uniform: The sound at different seats in the concert hall can be very different, but it is true at each of those seating positions. How it is perceived by different individuals is a different matter.
 
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853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
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Perhaps often, but not always. The truth can be useful to those willing and able to embrace it, and lead to more happiness, or to a faster path towards happiness. For others, no harm done by truth anything other than them perhaps becoming a little upset, if at all. So why not expose it?

***

Of course, you can have the relativistic stance that there is no such thing as truth. As a scientist I oppose such a view. On the other hand, I don't believe that as of yet all phenomena in audio can be explained by science, certainly not in the simplistic manner that many engineers want us to believe.

On the subjective level, truth can matter or not, and personal views can color how we perceive truth. And often truth is elusive and a matter of great debate. Yet there is truth.

Truth does not need to be uniform: The sound at different seats in the concert hall can be very different, but it is true at each of those seating positions. How it is perceived by different individuals is a different matter.

Hello Al,

Firstly, because the examples I used mainly deal with choice of an individualised nature in which the measurable impact for real-world harm is low to zero. Should an individual spend their money on a fancily packaged interconnect that causes a measurable loss of high frequencies due to inferior cable construction, the gross result of real-world harm is low (say, a 6dB loss at 16kHz). In fact, even given a measurable roll-off at 16kHz, the individual may actually prefer it, despite getting “less” for their money, resulting in a net gain for the individual overall.

Secondly, because the examples I used mainly deal with choice of an individualised nature in which the scalability of real-world harm is low to zero. Should an individual spend their money on an interconnect that causes a measurable loss of high frequencies due to inferior cable construction, the chance of anyone else being negatively effected is zero. The loss (harm) does not scale beyond the individual. Even in the case of cults/religious groups, one group’s decision to commit mass suicide does not cause all other cults/religious groups to commit suicide.

Thirdly, because I think it’s important to distinguish seeking the truth from modifying behaviour. It’s been my observation that people interested in the truth have no interest in modifying other people’s behaviour, because the truth requires an ethical framework that attempts to reference something other than itself. Those interested in modifying other people’s behaviour often put the ends before the means, causing greater harm in the process than the harm they perceive needs eradicating. We have thousands of historical precedents for the latter.

Lastly, because I am not someone who equates buying a bottle of wine, a cable, a footer, a box of audio pixie dust or even an entire audio system with insurance, financial investment advice, agri-chemical spraying and pharmacological/invasive medical procedures. The potential for real-world harm is both vastly different in terms of measurable impact and scalability. Robust objectivity matters to me far, far more in the latter than it does in the former. For the former, I’m content to be happy, even if I’m wrong.

Best,

853guy
 

Al M.

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Hello 853guy,

I understand. But if a guy cranks up the volume while switching to another component during a demo, in order to fool people into thinking that it sounds better, I'd like to know. Would you not?

Al
 

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
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Hello 853guy,

I understand. But if a guy cranks up the volume during a demo in order to fool people into thinking that it sounds better, I'd like to know. Would you not?

Al

Hi Al,

No, because it is not the responsibility of the person running the demo what the audience do with their money. If the general hi-fi buying public are not willing to take responsibility out of the hands of people who write about hi-fi for a living, or demo it for a living, or sell it for a living, and develop a robust process for their purchasing decisions when evaluating first-world luxury purchases of a non-essential variety, then that's their problem.

And no amount of you or me frantically waving our hands in the air it will change that. Caveat emptor.

Best,

853guy
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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(...) Of course, you can have the relativistic stance that there is no such thing as truth. As a scientist I oppose such a view. On the other hand, I don't believe that as of yet all phenomena in audio can be explained by science, certainly not in the simplistic manner that many engineers want us to believe.(...)

Curiously the good engineers explain us what we need to know. That stereo is a limited format too dependent on listener subjectivity to be addressed by scientific ways in a predictable and reliable way by people aiming at its ultimate capabilities. That we must understand that there is no "truth" in most of these matters. That this is a subjective hobby where one man's meat is another man's poison.

Being a scientist can help understanding why the high end very often is a real Babel tower, where some people just try to talk louder to get the attention. Or simply start crusades to get attention, a well know behavior. All IMHO, YMMV.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
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I would lol but again it’s fair game at shows and stores even events setup for a few venders
But if I did belong to a club I would be upset if they aloud it to happen and then ignored by the president but concerned it was done give me pause. What may have lead this guy to record his findings
 

Al M.

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Hi Al,

No, because it is not the responsibility of the person running the demo what the audience do with their money.

Hi 853guy,

it seems we are thinking within different moral frameworks then.

Al
 

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
1,161
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Hi 853guy,

it seems we are thinking within different moral frameworks then.

Al

Hi Al,

Yes, that's possibly true.

I get that there is an entire industry built around the manufacturing, marketing/promotion, distributing and selling of hi-fi gear, and there are people of unscrupulous morals throughout.

It is simply a more efficient and much more effective strategy to modify my own process in dealing with it, than it is to attempt to change theirs. Not because I don't care people are getting ripped off, but because the real-world measurable impact and scalability of harm is so low. In matters in which the real-world measurable impact and scalability of harm is high as I mention above, I'm more willing to engage on both an individual and collective level of change.

Best,

853guy
 

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