morricab

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If squirrels had threads we'd all be nuts.

Sometimes I wonder if our vocabulary is more finely grained than reality. I'm not buying the two (or n) worlds venn diagram stuff.

I can't wait to try these 45Hz test tones on my Pasiphae Uranium Horns. It's not journey or chase for its own sake or for the sake of the latest UHQR. I like to improve my system but in the limbic moment of some good Sibelius or Shostakovich, time is still. The more my system improves the greater appreciation I have for performances, conductors, and musicians. I fiddle with my vinyl front-end because I know its fine tuning improves the sound of music not some other sound. The more I do it, the better I get at it - the more I'm an audiophile the more I am a music lover. etc., v-v, ymmv.

While I get you here and largely agree that improving systems generally sharpens the music appreciation, this is definitely not the case for all people. I know a guy who changes whole systems (sometimes 2 or 3 systems) like he is changing his underwear. He must have had 100 or more different speakers and the same number of amps, preamps, dacs etc. etc. over the 15 years or so I have known him. I think in his view he wants to hear and tinker with all of it, or as big a slice of it as he possibly can, before leaving this earth. I think he barely listens to the music at all and I have never had a musical revelation at his place...he is always playing sort of standard audiophile jazzy stuff (Diana Krall for example). So for him it is the chase and then he gets bored and looks for the next conquest. He is extreme, although I think some members here can give him a run for the money.

I do both. I have a system that is now relatively fixed (Odeon La Boheme, Aries Cerat Genus, Aries Cerat Kassandra, Yamaha GT-2000 TT with Kiseki Blue or Audio Technica AT150MLX and Silvaweld phonostage) where I do my serious listening and music discovery and I have my "lab" system, which is part DIY and tunable with swappable high frequency systems (two different horns) etc. That is for speaker design and experimentation. If it ever gets fundamentally better sounding than my big rig then I would consider making IT the big rig but so far that is not a big concern.
 
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christoph

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bonzo75

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I have no ken of the venn. For your punishment you must read more Schopenhauer.

I don't even get a ten minute coffee break so can't have a Schopenhauer
 
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Blackmorec

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Resolution is the ability to discern a recording in a life like manner.
Anyway that’s my definition off the top of my head.
It is the total sum of the system.
I agree that it is a life’s work and it can be subjective like in your case...but systems are complex and i’d be surprised that the speakers mentioned could not in a well designed system achieve a high level of musical resolution. IMHO
Can I suggest a small change.....resolution is the ability to discern everything in the recording. If the recording contains lifelike detail then that’s what you should hear, but if the recording is dry and compressed, you should hear that too. A really good, high resolution system should not beautify poor recordings in the same way it should not make good recordings sound poor. The vast majority of recording are good to excellent but a few percent, certainly less that 10 will leave you wanting more and only listening if you really like the music
 

caesar

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You nominated explicitly those you dislike, can you tell us explicitly those you like? ;)

I seriously don't see myself buying any box speakers in my life... it's just not the experience I am interested in having. Nothing personal here - some people like skiing while others enjoy golf or water sports...

Now I am excluding Zu audio, which are technically "box speakers" but are single driver. Compared to the single driver Zu, I can hear the separate drivers in the latest $40K Wilson Watt Puppy (although set up by trained Wilson staff) and I also heard the drivers operating separately in the Magico M2 at Axpona, while others are raving about them... So I probably would upgrade my Zus sometimes along the way...

Of the box speakers I have heard, the best are the over $100K Von Schweikerts, YGs, and Zellatons. I was actually surprised I liked the Zellatons, but they were truly impressive... gotta read up on them and hear them again ... Also like the Vivids a lot, but because of their odd shape, they don't sound boxy to me...

So Zellatons and Vivids could be exceptions to the rule...

Also, want to add that I will be adding to the collection along the way, not replacing...
 
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NorthStar

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I think it is irrelevant if OP is a troll or not. The rest of us just want to chat.

Chat is good, chat with the OP too...the "director" (orchestral conductor).
But you're right, who needs a director when we can conduct ourselves.

Please proceed ... ;)
 
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NorthStar

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To be fair, the OP had a problem which most likely was caused by an upset in his system synergy. The follow up conversation that followed seems to have chased him away as the result of being fed solutions beyond his needs.
I"ve enjoyed reading the threat though, very entertaining.

We'll never know for certain without him further "chatting" (elaborating).

I don't think anyone chased him away; I have zero clue why he's not back on what could become a beautiful journey, less than zero illumination.

And, how can we musically evolve if we always "me me me" without putting his shoes on.
I know, not all sizes fit all. :)

* I still would like to know his music genres taste; that tells me more about the music lover in him. Audiophiles are the easy part ... or complicated part depending on how you fend the horns of the bull. ...Like a picador, a matador in a corrida de toros.
 

JackD201

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I seriously don't see myself buying any box speakers in my life... it's just not the experience I am interested in having. Nothing personal here - some people like skiing while others enjoy golf or water sports...

Now I am excluding Zu audio, which are technically "box speakers" but are single driver. Compared to the single driver Zu, I can hear the separate drivers in the latest $40K Wilson Watt Puppy (although set up by trained Wilson staff) and I also heard the drivers operating separately in the Magico M2 at Axpona, while others are raving about them... So I probably would upgrade my Zus sometimes along the way...

Of the box speakers I have heard, the best are the over $100K Von Schweikerts, YGs, and Zellatons. I was actually surprised I liked the Zellatons, but they were truly impressive... gotta read up on them and hear them again ... Also like the Vivids a lot, but because of their odd shape, they don't sound boxy to me...

So Zellatons and Vivids could be exceptions to the rule...

Also, want to add that I will be adding to the collection along the way, not replacing...

Wolfgang enjoyed the Ultra 11s when he visited. They do share presentational traits with his omni magic come to think of it.
 

Folsom

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While I get you here and largely agree that improving systems generally sharpens the music appreciation, this is definitely not the case for all people. I know a guy who changes whole systems (sometimes 2 or 3 systems) like he is changing his underwear. He must have had 100 or more different speakers and the same number of amps, preamps, dacs etc. etc. over the 15 years or so I have known him. I think in his view he wants to hear and tinker with all of it, or as big a slice of it as he possibly can, before leaving this earth. I think he barely listens to the music at all and I have never had a musical revelation at his place...he is always playing sort of standard audiophile jazzy stuff (Diana Krall for example). So for him it is the chase and then he gets bored and looks for the next conquest. He is extreme, although I think some members here can give him a run for the money.

That's probably exactly who the OP is talking about. In that case he is correct... The guy is a gear head.
 
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Blackmorec

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I seriously don't see myself buying any box speakers in my life... it's just not the experience I am interested in having. Nothing personal here - some people like skiing while others enjoy golf or water sports...

Now I am excluding Zu audio, which are technically "box speakers" but are single driver. Compared to the single driver Zu, I can hear the separate drivers in the latest $40K Wilson Watt Puppy (although set up by trained Wilson staff) and I also heard the drivers operating separately in the Magico M2 at Axpona, while others are raving about them... So I probably would upgrade my Zus sometimes along the way...

Of the box speakers I have heard, the best are the over $100K Von Schweikerts, YGs, and Zellatons. I was actually surprised I liked the Zellatons, but they were truly impressive... gotta read up on them and hear them again ... Also like the Vivids a lot, but because of their odd shape, they don't sound boxy to me...

So Zellatons and Vivids could be exceptions to the rule...

Also, want to add that I will be adding to the collection along the way, not replacing...
Hi Caesar,
Obviously I don’t know what you hear or how you hear things, but i thought you may be interested in observations based on what I hear.
Let’s take a good recording; something like Jeff Golub’s The Vault or Jan Garbarek’s Legend of the Seven Dreams.

The listening room disappears and is filled with the recording’s acoustic, a kind of atmosphere that fills the entire space with a kind of aural ‘texture’. Within this space instruments have a defined presence and life. Notes starts with a pinpoint ‘percussion’ and blossom out into their defined acoustic space....some notes decaying sideways and other notes decaying upwards. The notes have shape, sounding like they originate from a guitar string or from a saxaphone. Voices sound like they come from a mouth, with breaths, lip sounds, swallows and wet tongue noises. Each instrument has an individual identity with timbre, shape, note dynamics and decay. The sound sends shivers down your spine. The instruments all have their individual acoustic space, defined in all 3 dimensions. If the recording captured venue acoustics, they define the size of the listening environment, stronger notes having more clearly defined reflections. Brass instruments have attack, with tremendous note dynamics that start with an initial brashness and brightness, followed by mellow decay, the music punctuated by controlled breathy sounds of air passing over reeds. All instruments in the mix can be heard individually but together weave a glorious tapestry of rhythmic interplay, giving the music tremendous impetus, forward motion and drive. The music is highly involving, pulling the listener in, blotting out conscious thought and stimulating emotions and feelings....Garbarek having the feel of cold, lonely Northern Fjords, pine forests and glaciers, while Golub has more of a bustling city feeling, fast moving pace about it.
So what about the speakers? The what? Speakers? There’s not the slightest inkling that all this wonderful music is artificially created...the thought simply doesn’t occur as your mind is simply basking in all wonderful music. On reflection, does it sound lifelike? You betcha. Does it sound like the original sounded? No idea as I have absolutely no clue what the original sounded like for comparison and frankly I couln’t give a damn. All I know is that if the original sounded anything like as good as this it must have been pretty special (assuming of course that there ever was an original since these are studio albums)
So getting back to your point Caesar, I’m amazed that when you’re listening to something similar to what I’ve described you can actually pick out each driver’s contribution, when I can’t even pick out that there’s a pair of loudspeakers involved. What’s the music not doing that you’re able to listen through all the above to hear a driver’s contribution?
 
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PeterA

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Well said!

In addition to having money to participate in this hobby, one needs luck in having a good room.

And also luck in running into people who share one's taste that can help discover the proper gear.

Is Mike's room the result of luck, or is it the result of hard work and effort? One could also ask if his ability to afford such a room is a result of luck or hard work and effort.
 

NorthStar

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Good point Peter; Mike is a top gun audio/music reproduction passionate.
No luck here, total commitment and dedication and investment in the love of music, better than live.
 
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microstrip

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I seriously don't see myself buying any box speakers in my life... it's just not the experience I am interested in having. Nothing personal here - some people like skiing while others enjoy golf or water sports...

Now I am excluding Zu audio, which are technically "box speakers" but are single driver. Compared to the single driver Zu, I can hear the separate drivers in the latest $40K Wilson Watt Puppy (although set up by trained Wilson staff) and I also heard the drivers operating separately in the Magico M2 at Axpona, while others are raving about them... So I probably would upgrade my Zus sometimes along the way...

Of the box speakers I have heard, the best are the over $100K Von Schweikerts, YGs, and Zellatons. I was actually surprised I liked the Zellatons, but they were truly impressive... gotta read up on them and hear them again ... Also like the Vivids a lot, but because of their odd shape, they don't sound boxy to me...

So Zellatons and Vivids could be exceptions to the rule...

Also, want to add that I will be adding to the collection along the way, not replacing...

Well, my room hosts Soundlab's A1Px and Wilson XLFs and audio friends who listen to both have remarked the astonishing similitude in blending along the audio spectrum of both speakers - we also can't hear the XLF drivers as they say. As far as I know Steve does not hear the drives in his X2 and the Alexia or the Aida did not suffer from this problem in my room. I remember I complained about it in the original Magico Q7, the Q7 mk2 completely solved it.

I have found that I usually can hear the drivers in non-burned in speakers taken form the box - blending is usually the main improvement after a couple of hundreds of hours of operation. It is the more frequent sin of shows or shop demos - usually they do not have the time to burn-in equipment, the units being demoed almost smell fresh paint!:)
But I have not experience enough with the Sasha DAW to comment on this aspect.

IMHO a poor or inadequate source or amplification "exposes" the drivers of a speaker - the "defects" become localized in the unit zone.
 

Al M.

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I seriously don't see myself buying any box speakers in my life... it's just not the experience I am interested in having. Nothing personal here - some people like skiing while others enjoy golf or water sports...

Now I am excluding Zu audio, which are technically "box speakers" but are single driver. Compared to the single driver Zu, I can hear the separate drivers in the latest $40K Wilson Watt Puppy (although set up by trained Wilson staff) and I also heard the drivers operating separately in the Magico M2 at Axpona, while others are raving about them... So I probably would upgrade my Zus sometimes along the way...

Of the box speakers I have heard, the best are the over $100K Von Schweikerts, YGs, and Zellatons. I was actually surprised I liked the Zellatons, but they were truly impressive... gotta read up on them and hear them again ... Also like the Vivids a lot, but because of their odd shape, they don't sound boxy to me...

So Zellatons and Vivids could be exceptions to the rule...

Also, want to add that I will be adding to the collection along the way, not replacing...

In my years long experience of Magico speakers in my friends' systems I have never been able to hear separate drivers. Yet I have never heard these speakers not broken in; Microstrip makes a good point here. I also never could discern the drivers in my two way monitors, nor any lack of driver integration between these and my subwoofers, unless I sit in the wrong spot in the room (something that would be more likely than not under show conditions BTW, where you rarely get the sweet spot). My speaker combo also does not sound 'boxy' in any way, something that I have a great aversion for as well.

I did hear separate drivers in other systems, so I am well aware of and sensitive to the problem. It just does not present itself in the above mentioned cases.
 
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Folsom

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Vivids shape and “not boxy” sound is a hypothesis. That can’t be proven unless you put the same parts in a “box”.

Magicos are like just about any speaker, with certain amps the drivers sound seperate. It’s hard to know what that sound is unless you also hear without. It’s not like you hear two sources, it’s more like you hear sound that isn’t congruent across the spectrum so the highs or lows may distract from one another depending on the music.

Good integration/setup/gear-selection makes you stop hearing the stereo, and start hearing the music.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Vivids shape and “not boxy” sound is a hypothesis. That can’t be proven unless you put the same parts in a “box”.

. . .

+1
 

tima

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Now I am excluding Zu audio, which are technically "box speakers" but are single driver. Compared to the single driver Zu, I can hear the separate drivers in the latest $40K Wilson Watt Puppy (although set up by trained Wilson staff) and I also heard the drivers operating separately in the Magico M2 at Axpona, while others are raving about them... So I probably would upgrade my Zus sometimes along the way...

Intent may play a role. If I stop listening to music and start listening for drivers I can hear any driver I want.
 

JackD201

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Intent may play a role. If I stop listening to music and start listening for drivers I can hear any driver I want.

For sure!
 

bonzo75

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Well, my room hosts Soundlab's A1Px and Wilson XLFs and audio friends who listen to both have remarked the astonishing similitude in blending along the audio spectrum of both speakers - we also can't hear the XLF drivers as they say. As far as I know Steve does not hear the drives in his X2 and the Alexia or the Aida did not suffer from this problem in my room. I remember I complained about it in the original Magico Q7, the Q7 mk2 completely solved it.

I have found that I usually can hear the drivers in non-burned in speakers taken form the box - blending is usually the main improvement after a couple of hundreds of hours of operation. It is the more frequent sin of shows or shop demos - usually they do not have the time to burn-in equipment, the units being demoed almost smell fresh paint!:)
But I have not experience enough with the Sasha DAW to comment on this aspect.

IMHO a poor or inadequate source or amplification "exposes" the drivers of a speaker - the "defects" become localized in the unit zone.

Actually it is very easy to hear disparate drivers in every Alexandria set up, X2 or XLF regardless of the room and electronics. And none of these are show demos, only one is a dealer demo and that too long time settled at the dealer. Haven't heard the Alexx but otherwise the most integrated of the Wilsons is actually the Sasha 2.
 

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