audioquattr system, from A to Z

Sep 7, 2016
234
237
43
Netherlands
#41
But have to do that compare another time...

Earlier this week the guys from my dealer came and wanted to try (to sell ;-) ) the Graham Phantom Elite on my Techdas AF3premium.
They mounted the Grado Epoch on the Elite. Adjust it for some time till we were happy..
Wow what a sound, this is a very good combination. Superb drive , slam and very good macrodynamics. Microdynamics maybe just a tiny bit behind the SME. Also the bass is much more rolling now, in a musical way. Allmost to much...
To control the bass Michael tried some different adjustments,vta/vtf etc. But we loose all the magic, so back to the first setting.
We decided to try another way..
While we were with a few men we moved the speakers and after that the sound was much better. The speakers are now at the back 26cm (10inch) more closer. Also less toe in. The bass is much more contolled. Higher midbass is more powerfull now. Soundstage is a bit less wide but more grip.
Overall a very good day. Still learning the system, still work in progress.. still , but not allways while learning, fun :)

gragra..
gragra.jpg

grado on graham

gragra2.jpg
 
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marslo

VIP/Donor
May 2, 2014
570
79
28
Poland
#42
I prefer the RK242 above the EML 300b XLS. But like i said now on the new system.

Could be because of new love, but for now the RK242 is on top of my list.
1. RK 242
2. 101d we repl (metal base psvane)
3. KR 242
4. Tak 300b
5. Elrog 300b.
6. EML 300b XLS.
7. KR PX4
8. EML 45 mesh
9. KR 45
10. KR 300b solid
15. EML 300b Mesh

Recti's
1. RK 5u4 Lampi 2018
2. KR 5u4 Lampi 2016
3. Tak 274b
4. EML 5u4 mesh
5. EML 274b mesh
6. KR 274b
7. PsVane 274b

Sometimes the Tak 274b is the better choice. But not for the top 5 output tubes. Offcourse all IMHO and in my current system.
Dear audioquattr,

I want to share with you that in my setup Psvane 101D replicas metal base are for now on the first place but I replaced recti RK 5u4g with inexpensive Italian Fivre 5R4GY Brown Base from late 50 recommended by Trab, a friend audiophile.
Today I will receive KR PX 25 and a new RK 300 B so will update my ranking within a few days.
I did not try KR 242 in Pacific though, I listened to them in my former B7 and it was too much gain in my system . Maybe I should try them again with Pacific as inside the DAC there are toggles to choose between high and low gain, for time being I switched to high position.
Best,
M
 
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christoph

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2015
853
272
63
Principality of Liechtenstein
#43
I can send you mine for testing, i do have a spare.
PM me if you want.
Wow, that is an extremely generous offer :eek:
This way, I could finally get to hear the famous Takatsuki rectifier :cool:

But aren't you afraid that something could happen to the precious tube sending it around? :oops:
 

christoph

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2015
853
272
63
Principality of Liechtenstein
#44
Dear audioquattr,

I want to share with you that in my setup Psvane 101D replicas metal base are for now on the first place but I replaced recti RK 5u4g with inexpensive Italian Fivre 5R4GY Brown Base from late 50 recommended by Trab, a friend audiophile.
Today I will receive KR PX 25 and a new RK 300 B so will update my ranking within a few days.
I dit not try KR 242 in Pacific though, I listened them in my former B7 and it was too much gain in my system . Maybe I should try them again with Pacific as inside the DAC there are toggles to choose between high and low gain, for time being I switched to high position.
Best,
M
Dear Marslo

In the Pacific, we liked the KR PX25 in combination with the RK 5u4g the best in our big GG/GG2/PAC DAC and tube compare at my place.
But back then, we didn't have the RK Version of the 242.
IMHO you should definitely give the RK 242 a try in your Pacific.
Goran liked the PX25 in his GG2 better than the regular 242, but now he says that he likes the RK 242 at least as much as the PX25 :D

Is that toggle for high and low gain inside every Pacific?
And it does not have to do with the 5 setting Rotary Switch on the back, right?
 
Likes: marslo
Sep 7, 2016
234
237
43
Netherlands
#45
Dear audioquattr,

I want to share with you that in my setup Psvane 101D replicas metal base are for now on the first place but I replaced recti RK 5u4g with inexpensive Italian Fivre 5R4GY Brown Base from late 50 recommended by Trab, a friend audiophile.
Today I will receive KR PX 25 and a new RK 300 B so will update my ranking within a few days.
I dit not try KR 242 in Pacific though, I listened them in my former B7 and it was too much gain in my system . Maybe I should try them again with Pacific as inside the DAC there are toggles to choose between high and low gain, for time being I switched to high position.
Best,
M
Dear marslo,

Ok thanks! That is interesting. I really like the Psvane 101d we reps, that's why it is second on my list.
So another way to improve this tube is very appreciated :).

Oh... i see i totally forgot a tube in my list, the RK 300b... I will update my top 10.
I don't have the KR PX25 , it seems it is much better than the PX-4. I think i will wait for the RK PX25.

Would be good to hear your experiences of those tubes when you have some hours on them.

The good thing from the new RK 242 is that it has 2dB less gain than the KR242. It stil has about 8dB more than regular tubes.

BR, aq
 
Last edited:
Likes: marslo
Sep 7, 2016
234
237
43
Netherlands
#47
updated, my fav output tubes list for Lampizator Pacific. (now incl RK 300b Lampi)

1. RK 242
2. 101d we repl (metal base psvane)
3. KR 242
4. Tak 300b
5. Elrog 300b.
6. RK 300b
7. EML 300b XLS
8. KR PX4
9. EML 45 mesh
10. KR 45
11. KR 300b solid
15. EML 300b Mesh
 
Likes: christoph

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
2,006
478
83
UK
#48
updated, my fav output tubes list for Lampizator Pacific. (now incl RK 300b Lampi)

1. RK 242
2. 101d we repl (metal base psvane)
3. KR 242
4. Tak 300b
5. Elrog 300b.
6. RK 300b
7. EML 300b XLS
8. KR PX4
9. EML 45 mesh
10. KR 45
11. KR 300b solid
15. EML 300b Mesh
Did you try PX-25?
 

marslo

VIP/Donor
May 2, 2014
570
79
28
Poland
#50
Dear Marslo

In the Pacific, we liked the KR PX25 in combination with the RK 5u4g the best in our big GG/GG2/PAC DAC and tube compare at my place.
But back then, we didn't have the RK Version of the 242.
IMHO you should definitely give the RK 242 a try in your Pacific.
Goran liked the PX25 in his GG2 better than the regular 242, but now he says that he likes the RK 242 at least as much as the PX25 :D

Is that toggle for high and low gain inside every Pacific?
And it does not have to do with the 5 setting Rotary Switch on the back, right?
Dear Christoph,
Yes , the toggles are inside Pacific, at least in mine.
I asked today Lukasz if I have to select low gain for PX 25 before I install them, the answer was „ No” , heater position as for 101D.
I just started to listen, it seems they are not bad:)
And yes, the toggles have nothing to do with heater selector.
Well, with those tubes is never ending story, now RK 242, my Goodness;)
Best,
M
 
Likes: christoph

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
5,400
329
83
North Shore of Boston
#51
Audioquattr, I am fascinated by your tonearm comparisons and curious about your comment regarding the bass from your system. Adjusting the speaker positioning slightly makes sense to me. Have you experimented with the loading on your Pass XS Phono? Could you briefly discuss if and how that affects the overall sonics with the different cartridges?

I have been experimenting with my system, and I find that it can be very challenging to take into account all of the various adjustments that affect the sound of a vinyl system from the usual cartridge/arm settings to loading to cabling to speaker positioning. It seems to all make a difference and I find it tough to know when to stop playing and simply listen to the music. If I had more cartridges and arms, I don't know if I would then think about slightly moving the speakers to adjust the sound. I suppose some find this to be the challenge and a fun part of the hobby.
 
Sep 7, 2016
234
237
43
Netherlands
#52
Audioquattr, I am fascinated by your tonearm comparisons and curious about your comment regarding the bass from your system. Adjusting the speaker positioning slightly makes sense to me. Have you experimented with the loading on your Pass XS Phono? Could you briefly discuss if and how that affects the overall sonics with the different cartridges?

I have been experimenting with my system, and I find that it can be very challenging to take into account all of the various adjustments that affect the sound of a vinyl system from the usual cartridge/arm settings to loading to cabling to speaker positioning. It seems to all make a difference and I find it tough to know when to stop playing and simply listen to the music. If I had more cartridges and arms, I don't know if I would then think about slightly moving the speakers to adjust the sound. I suppose some find this to be the challenge and a fun part of the hobby.
Peter, yes i experiment a lot with loading. It does make a lot of sense with most carts. With the Pass XS you can adjust a lot. I make notes of all carts with all the settings on the different carts.
With the Grado i allways use 47K load. Otherwise is sounds slow and rolled of.
That is also factory spec and also what is found optimal in M Fremer's review.

.... I have been experimenting with my system, and I find that it can be very challenging to take into account all of the various adjustments that affect the sound of a vinyl system from the usual cartridge/arm settings to loading to cabling to speaker positioning. It seems to all make a difference and I find it tough to know when to stop playing and simply listen to the music. If I had more cartridges and arms, I don't know if I would then think about slightly moving the speakers to adjust the sound. I suppose some find this to be the challenge and a fun part of the hobby.
I totally agree with you. And it does make all a difference.
But i don't want to move speakers when i listen to a different arm/cart combination.


As i wrote somewhere in the start of Ron's visit report about 7-8 weeks ago, i got a lot of stuff together in a few weeks time. Allthough i ordered those parts some 8, some 4, some 2 months before. So than it gets complicated, at least to me.
The Cessaro system made the biggest change in my system, so when it was set up ( a few weeks before Ron visited) all was finetuned and placed to have an allready very good sound.
Ralph (the designer) told me than AND before that a re-visit and finetuning later was a must (and included). We found out that also a cossover update was needed because of to much highs alo because of the shorter listening distance.
The complete physical speaker setup was done with the "to much highs" crossover. That physical speaker setup in the room also had a bit to much midbass energy between 80-110hz. But that wasn't "illuminated" because of the highs.
28 december the crossover was changed which made a big improvement. Happy with the new results.

Another HAPPY time 'to get used to' started.
Still physical speaker setup was not changed since first.
Last few weeks i tried different things, and vtf a bit lower. With the Grado Epoch vtf is recommended between 1.5-1.9gr. VTF at 1.5gr the midbass boom was much less and i got a lot of airyness. So i left it there for a while..

Please read now again post #41 :

Earlier this week the guys from my dealer came and wanted to try (to sell ;-) ) the Graham Phantom Elite on my Techdas AF3premium.
They mounted the Grado Epoch on the Elite. Adjust it for some time till we were happy..
Wow what a sound, this is a very good combination. Superb drive , slam and very good macrodynamics. Microdynamics maybe just a tiny bit behind the SME. Also the bass is much more rolling now, in a musical way. Allmost to much...
To control the bass Michael tried some different adjustments,vta/vtf etc. But we loose all the magic, so back to the first setting.
We decided to try another way..
While we were with a few men we moved the speakers and after that the sound was much better. The speakers are now at the back 26cm (10inch) more closer. Also less toe in. The bass is much more contolled. Higher midbass is more powerfull now. Soundstage is a bit less wide but more grip.
Overall a very good day. Still learning the system, still work in progress.. still , but now allways while learning, fun
:)


Sorry for the long story but i hope you (and others) now understand why we did the speaker move/adjustments.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
2,644
86
48
#53
updated, my fav output tubes list for Lampizator Pacific. (now incl RK 300b Lampi)

1. RK 242
2. 101d we repl (metal base psvane)
3. KR 242
4. Tak 300b
5. Elrog 300b.
6. RK 300b
7. EML 300b XLS
8. KR PX4
9. EML 45 mesh
10. KR 45
11. KR 300b solid
15. EML 300b Mesh
Not a 45 lover are you? EML mesh 45 AG is far better than 101d for me, but I need to revisit.
 
Sep 7, 2016
234
237
43
Netherlands
#54
Not a 45 lover are you? EML mesh 45 AG is far better than 101d for me, but I need to revisit.
I like them, they're in my top 10 ;-). But not my favorits.

In my Big7 i liked the 101d reps. In my 2016 GG i prefered all 45's above the 101d's, but they were much higher in temperature.
I had a switch at the back but on both they were hotter than before in the Big7.
Now in the Pacific (and new GG 2..) with the heat selector all tubes (to me) or performing better, more optimal.
Now the 101d's sounds way better than in my GG. Those tubes sounds also better within a few seconds till 1 hour than after that...

I never had the EML mesh 45 AG, unfortunately...
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
10,590
887
113
London
#55
Not a 45 lover are you? EML mesh 45 AG is far better than 101d for me, but I need to revisit.
The 101d I gave up on long ago, but AQ's system they were awesome. I am glad I did not sell mine. In other systems they lost out on tone and stage to the other valves, but not here.
 
Likes: wisnon

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
2,644
86
48
#56
I like them, they're in my top 10 ;-). But not my favorits.

In my Big7 i liked the 101d reps. In my 2016 GG i prefered all 45's above the 101d's, but they were much higher in temperature.
I had a switch at the back but on both they were hotter than before in the Big7.
Now in the Pacific (and new GG 2..) with the heat selector all tubes (to me) or performing better, more optimal.
Now the 101d's sounds way better than in my GG. Those tubes sounds also better within a few seconds till 1 hour than after that...

I never had the EML mesh 45 AG, unfortunately...
Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about the AG mesh globes in your evaluation. Now it makes sense to me. I have to go back to re-evaluate the 101d reps in the Pac vs GG. Wish I still had the cheapo white base 101d. Some say its better in the GG than the metal base. Its seems the Pac and GG2 change things up.
 
Likes: audioquattr

christoph

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2015
853
272
63
Principality of Liechtenstein
#57
updated, my fav output tubes list for Lampizator Pacific. (now incl RK 300b Lampi)

1. RK 242
2. 101d we repl (metal base psvane)
3. KR 242
4. Tak 300b
5. Elrog 300b.
6. RK 300b
7. EML 300b XLS
8. KR PX4
9. EML 45 mesh
10. KR 45
11. KR 300b solid
15. EML 300b Mesh
Hi AQ

Have you ever tried the 300b Takatsuki Output tubes with the 274b Takatsuki rectifier in your Pacific DAC?

A long distance friend of mine said that they are the "holy trinity" in the Pacific for him (and he has a aweful lot of tubes to compare...) :eek:
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
2,644
86
48
#58
Leichtenstein rolling session results reposted (3 dacs, tons of tubes):

PACIFIC DAC:

1) Ayon 5u4g, Eml Mesh 45 - Could have a bit more punch, rest OK, airy
2) Ayon 5u4g, RK 300b - more upper bass, full bodied, slightly colored in a positive way, more focus, bigger stage, dryer
3) Ayon 5u4g, KR PX25 - Air, weight, ideal tubey sound, lots of air, bloom, decay
4) Ayon 5u4g, KR 242 - more FW sounding, less tubey, less layered depth, very transparent, faster
5) Ayon 5u4g, EML Mesh 45 Ann Globe - Soft, tubey, less substance, laid back on the other hand very airy, not enough meat. Norm preferred it to 242 in vocals.
6) RK 5u4g, EML Mesh 45 Ann Globe - Crispier, cleaner, bigger stage, livelier, more body but still lacking substance and body
7) RK 5u4g, 101d - small stage, not the same league as the other ones
8) RK 5u4g, KR 242 - No major objection, fast, transparent, layering, great staging, more dynamic with this recti...noticeably better than Ayon recti
9) RK 5u4g, KR PX25 - Spaciousness, great overall performer, perfect match with RK recti, huge stage. Top combo in Pacific!
10) KR 5u4g white ceramic base, KR PX25 - very close as above, just maybe a bit less dynamic but all very close. Upon going back to RK recti it is better combo for sure!
11) RK 5u4g, RK 300b - A lot better than with Ayon, we find this combo close to PX25 combo, seems like more meat to PX25, combines virtues of 242 and PX25.

Top pic for PACIFIC was KR PX25 with RK 5u4g.

Golden Gate 1:

1) KR 5u4g white ceramic base, KR242 - Chris favourite combination in his GG. Vs. PAC different presentation type, more tubey sound, less detailed than PAC, less stage high, more treble with PAC.
2) RK 5u4g, KR242 - again massive difference with RK recti - very detailed, open sound. Big in all directions.
3) RK 5u4g, RK300b - excellent combination but 242 is doing things in this DAC just better in all terms - more punch, more resolution, staging...
4) RK 5u4g, KR PX25 - again great combo, more tubey sounding but still great details, punch, warm, very 3D and palpable
5) RK 5u4g, Elrog 300b - we like it, punch, detail, great vocals, overall great performer
6) RK 5u4g, EML Mesh 45 Globe Ann - not a great match for PAC but in GG a nice match. Good weight, spaciousness. Not enough weight with classical.

Consensus is that RK recti and KR PX25 works best.

Golden Gate 2.5:

1) RK 5u4g, KR242 - Fantastic speed, decay, bloom, tonality. Mellowness is just right, more treble extension.
2) RK 5u4g, KR PX25 - keeping the main character from 242 but adding additional tube sweetness in positive sense. Very natural sounding. Awesome instrument color of cello, brass,...
3) RK 5u4g, RK 300b - Very transparent, huge stage, detailed, punchy without losing control.

Could not draw a conclusion which tube was the favourite as they all performed exceptional but depending on the music 242 and PX25 stand out. With complex music 242 creates less congestion and PX25 creates more magic with 'easier music'.

DAC comparison:
Pacific is the most transparent & dynamic making several more tube choices play on exceptional level.
GG1 warmer sounding or tubey sounding doing everything right where 242 is the right choice giving additional kick and dynamic. GG2.5 is a perfect/great blend of both directions being dynamic and transparent but not lacking any tube magic.
 
Sep 7, 2016
234
237
43
Netherlands
#59
Hi AQ

Have you ever tried the 300b Takatsuki Output tubes with the 274b Takatsuki rectifier in your Pacific DAC?

A long distance friend of mine said that they are the "holy trinity" in the Pacific for him (and he has a aweful lot of tubes to compare...) :eek:
Hi Christoph,

Yes i have. Before i had the Lampi edition's from the 5u4g THAT was my favorite combi (in the GG).
I still like the Taks very much. On a lot aspects i prefer them above the KR 242. It is very sweet and superb soundstage in higher mids and highs. In lower mids and midbass the KR242 and RK242 are better IMHO.

You can see in my first 3 posts of this topic in all pics the Tak300b output tubes.

These Takatsuki Output and rectifier tubes belong to the best.
And between the best, it is system and listener (and mood) dependent which to choose, all imho offcourse.

So i can really understand your friend's choice.
 
Sep 7, 2016
234
237
43
Netherlands
#60
Leichtenstein rolling session results reposted (3 dacs, tons of tubes):

PACIFIC DAC:

1) Ayon 5u4g, Eml Mesh 45 - Could have a bit more punch, rest OK, airy
2) Ayon 5u4g, RK 300b - more upper bass, full bodied, slightly colored in a positive way, more focus, bigger stage, dryer
3) Ayon 5u4g, KR PX25 - Air, weight, ideal tubey sound, lots of air, bloom, decay
4) Ayon 5u4g, KR 242 - more FW sounding, less tubey, less layered depth, very transparent, faster
5) Ayon 5u4g, EML Mesh 45 Ann Globe - Soft, tubey, less substance, laid back on the other hand very airy, not enough meat. Norm preferred it to 242 in vocals.
6) RK 5u4g, EML Mesh 45 Ann Globe - Crispier, cleaner, bigger stage, livelier, more body but still lacking substance and body
7) RK 5u4g, 101d - small stage, not the same league as the other ones
8) RK 5u4g, KR 242 - No major objection, fast, transparent, layering, great staging, more dynamic with this recti...noticeably better than Ayon recti
9) RK 5u4g, KR PX25 - Spaciousness, great overall performer, perfect match with RK recti, huge stage. Top combo in Pacific!
10) KR 5u4g white ceramic base, KR PX25 - very close as above, just maybe a bit less dynamic but all very close. Upon going back to RK recti it is better combo for sure!
11) RK 5u4g, RK 300b - A lot better than with Ayon, we find this combo close to PX25 combo, seems like more meat to PX25, combines virtues of 242 and PX25.

Top pic for PACIFIC was KR PX25 with RK 5u4g.

Golden Gate 1:

1) KR 5u4g white ceramic base, KR242 - Chris favourite combination in his GG. Vs. PAC different presentation type, more tubey sound, less detailed than PAC, less stage high, more treble with PAC.
2) RK 5u4g, KR242 - again massive difference with RK recti - very detailed, open sound. Big in all directions.
3) RK 5u4g, RK300b - excellent combination but 242 is doing things in this DAC just better in all terms - more punch, more resolution, staging...
4) RK 5u4g, KR PX25 - again great combo, more tubey sounding but still great details, punch, warm, very 3D and palpable
5) RK 5u4g, Elrog 300b - we like it, punch, detail, great vocals, overall great performer
6) RK 5u4g, EML Mesh 45 Globe Ann - not a great match for PAC but in GG a nice match. Good weight, spaciousness. Not enough weight with classical.

Consensus is that RK recti and KR PX25 works best.

Golden Gate 2.5:

1) RK 5u4g, KR242 - Fantastic speed, decay, bloom, tonality. Mellowness is just right, more treble extension.
2) RK 5u4g, KR PX25 - keeping the main character from 242 but adding additional tube sweetness in positive sense. Very natural sounding. Awesome instrument color of cello, brass,...
3) RK 5u4g, RK 300b - Very transparent, huge stage, detailed, punchy without losing control.

Could not draw a conclusion which tube was the favourite as they all performed exceptional but depending on the music 242 and PX25 stand out. With complex music 242 creates less congestion and PX25 creates more magic with 'easier music'.

DAC comparison:
Pacific is the most transparent & dynamic making several more tube choices play on exceptional level.
GG1 warmer sounding or tubey sounding doing everything right where 242 is the right choice giving additional kick and dynamic. GG2.5 is a perfect/great blend of both directions being dynamic and transparent but not lacking any tube magic.
Yes that whas an awesome Tube test session, weldone guys!
A lot to learn and nice short notes.
 
Likes: christoph

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