Bayz Audio Counterpoint 2.0 >>>>Rhapsody.Audio

Emperyan

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2020
32
32
83
43
Quick question about the Courante and Counterpoint designs:
Why are lower frequencies - being emitted from the rear ports - not playing out of phase?
Because the woofer drivers seem to be firing into the tubes with the exact opposite phase than towards the tweeter.
I´m a bit puzzled about that one.
 

Beachman

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2020
30
31
85
Emperyan,

I will do my best to explain the unique and advanced operation of the Bayz Audio speakers.

When the Courante or Counterpoint receives a signal at mid-frequencies, the lower woofer's cone moves vertically upward and the top woofer's cone moves vertically downward combining to produce an in-phase positive sound pressure. At this point, the pressure coming out of the port would be negative except the negative pressure inside the enclosure is absorbed, in this case, by a patent-pending advanced absorption material. At these mid-frequencies, the tweeter membrane is moving outward producing a positive pressure that is in-phase with the woofers. Everyone is working together!

Ported speakers have a "tuning frequency" where the woofer, the port, and the enclosure are closely matched to work together at a very low frequency. At this very low frequency, the woofer exhibits a phase shift greater than a typical sealed woofer's phase shift. This phase shift is utilized to extend the bass response. At this tuning frequency, the woofer displacement is minimum (barely moving) and the bass is mostly produced by the port. Because the woofer is barely moving, the distortion is significantly reduced at the tuning frequency.

It should be noted that a typical tuning frequency is 5 or more octaves below the tweeter's crossover; consequently, the tweeter is receiving no signal and is producing no sound pressure at the tuning frequency.
 

Emperyan

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2020
32
32
83
43
Thanks for the explanation.

So do I get it right, that all mid-frequencies are indeed of opposite phase inside the tubes, but they get completely absorbed?
How can they be absorbed without making the light chassis vibrate?

And the deep frequencies, which are not absorbed, are being extended through the tubes only. Are the deep frequencies back in phase with the higher ones after travelling through the tubes? Or is the phase shift not much of a problem as almost none of these low frequencies are being played by the woofer movement towards the tweeter and therefore not emitted to the front?
 

Beachman

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2020
30
31
85
Hi Emperyan,

The questions you ask are very good and apply to all ported loudspeakers. At the mid- and high frequencies, your questions apply to all sealed loudspeakers too.

Yes, you are correct. When a driver produces a positive sound pressure in the room, it is simultaneously producing a negative sound pressure inside the speaker enclosure. At mid and high frequencies, the negative sound pressure is absorbed usually by acoustic foam, rock wool, fiberglass batting, etc. Because Bayz Audio uses a proprietary material, our absorption is better and absorbs to a lower frequency.

Loudspeaker enclosures are pressure vessels that “contain” the pressure produced by the driver. Containing the pressure is the sole purpose of a loudspeaker enclosure. Have you ever noticed that pressure vessels are all cylinders (and sometimes, a sphere)? Compressed gas bottles are cylinders. Tanker trucks are cylinders. Even hair spray and spray paint cans are cylinders. That’s because a cylinder is a highly effective pressure vessel. When a cylinder is constructed from real carbon fiber and designed and fabricated by an F1 racing plane designer, the result is astonishing. This combination is incredibly stiff and prevents the chassis from vibrating. It’s a 21st century solution to a 20th century problem.

You are correct: at very low frequencies, the woofer and the port are, more or less, in-phase and sum to produce bass. If they were out of phase, the pressure would be diminished partially cancelling; you would hear less bass and you would perceive it as low frequency roll off.

This cancellation is easily observed and occurs often when the right speaker and the left speaker are mistakenly connected to the amplifier out-of-phase: the bass disappears.

At very low frequencies, the polar response from the woofer and the port is omnidirectional. Please note that the wavelengths are on the order of 12m long and as a consequence, the bass is emitted in all directions.
 

Emperyan

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2020
32
32
83
43
Ok, got it. Quite ingenious, I must say.

Is the black piano gloss version of the speaker also made of carbon fiber, but with a piano gloss finish instead of sight carbon?
 

Duke LeJeune

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
Jul 22, 2013
747
1,200
435
Princeton, Texas
Quick question about the Courante and Counterpoint designs:
Why are lower frequencies - being emitted from the rear ports - not playing out of phase?

One of the characteristics of the Helmholtz resonance at a ported loudspeaker's tuning frequency is phase-inversion; that is, at the resonant frequency, the output from the port is phase-shifted by 180 degrees. This puts it back in-phase with the output from the front of the cone, resulting in a theoretical 6 dB increase in output at the tuning frequency, and some increase in output above the tuning frequency.

It gets even more interesting: Because the pressure inside the box is OUT OF PHASE with the cone motion at the port tuning frequency, it pushes back AGAINST the cone! This back-pressure against the cone is essentially identical in strength but opposite in phase to the force the motor is exerting on the cone, and the two opposing forces sum to ZERO cone motion at the tuning frequency. BUT that DOUBLE DOSE of pressure is experienced by the air inside the enclosure, and that doubled internal air pressure exits the port (as sound). In fact, TWICE as much air exits the port as what the woofer would have moved on its own, because of the double dose (the woofer's pressure + the phase-inverted pressure). The same thing happens on the rarefaction cycle - where the pressure inside the box is DECREASED as the woofer moves forward, and again we get a double dose at port resonance because of the phase inversion. So a ported box effectively harvests the energy from BOTH sides of the cone (at the tuning frequency). One implication is that the port (or passive radiator) needs to be capable of TWICE the undistorted air movement of the woofer alone.

In practice there are some losses due to stuffing material or friction or whatever, so there is still a little bit of cone motion at the tuning frequency, and the actual increase in SPL (relative to a sealed box) is usually a little bit less than 6 dB.
 
Last edited:

Beachman

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2020
30
31
85
Hi Emperyan,

The carbon fiber versions (Counterpoint CF and Courante CF) are clear-coated; however, either version can be painted in any RAL color the customer desires. The Counterpoint and Courante Piano Black version are glass fiber construction.

The rigidity of the enclosure is a function of the geometry and material. Generally speaking, geometry dominates the equation and both enclosures utilize the same advanced geometry. However, the carbon fiber used in our design will deflect slightly less than glass fiber.

Also, it should be noted that Bayz Audio Counterpoint CF and Courante CF is full carbon fiber construction and not a thin layer covering an enclosure or a thin carbon fiber veneer to provide a "carbon fiber look."
 

Rhapsody

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Jan 16, 2013
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Rhapsody.Audio

Emperyan

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2020
32
32
83
43
This is the Counterpoint discussion, but as it seems like this thread has established itself as the main one for all about Bayz, I´m posting my impressions on the Courante (with 2.0 drivers) in here.


I have had the Courantes for three weeks now in my living room and spent the first two weeks with burning them in (yes, there was a very significant burn-in effect) and fixing some room issues. Unfortunately, the speakers are exciting my room in an unfortunate way on every position I can feasibly place them, resulting in a modal peak around 70Hz and a null around 110Hz. I guess the backfiring bass ports might play a role in this problem. Zoltán sent me port plugs which helped significantly, I added a pair of active bass traps and had to apply some digital room correction (via Acourate) to fix the issue. With all this being done, it ended up fine and critical listening could start.

First of all, I have to say, these are omni speakers. Like with all other omnis, I have auditioned (maybe the big MBLs to a lesser extent), the Bayz don´t jump directly at you on macro dynamic changes like big regular dynamic speakers do. Whether you consider this a con or a pro is up to the listener´s taste. I for myself like this “blown away” effect in some specific cases, but mostly I consider it a hifi effect which is kind of artificial – I don´t get this effect with unamplified live music, not even with a large orchestra. You only ever get something similar (but still different) if you are standing near a blazing drumkit.
That being said, the Courantes are very dynamic speakers, indeed. Micro dynamics are off the chart, as these are easily the fastest tweeters I have ever witnessed. The tweeter can fire sounds out of nowhere so fast, it can be startling.
Macro dynamics are also very good – just different than what you might be used to. Less impact, but a more natural response. Not sure, but this might vary a bit with the room you are in.

Imaging is amazing. I know it´s sometimes hard to make omnis image nicely. I am listening to the Courantes set about 3.8 meters wide with me being about 3.6 meters away from the speakers. This results in what some might call a larger than life stage, but I like it – it´s more like 5th row in concert compared to 20th. Anyway, this setup is tough to image even with conventional speakers. But I am amazed how well the Bayz are imaging. There is nothing lacking. Courantes are able to place sonic events perfectly in the center, everywhere all across the way from center to the speakers and even outside of the speakers.

The way they present the stage, instrument placement, spaciousness, recorded reverb and so on is very unique to each piece of music. I was browsing through my music library and discovering subtle differences I have never noticed before. Different recordings sound vastly different in this regard. Whether a voice sounds small and pinpointed or broad and large, whether its placed far back on the stage or intimately close – there is a huge variety. Same goes for the instruments and overall ambience. Every track is a new world to discover.

I guess one of the main strengths of these speakers is palpability. You can feel the presence of the instruments and singers in the room in an amazing way. All sonic events are clearly separated from each other (throughout the whole frequency range!) and even when playing at the same place on the stage, they are super distinguishable from each other. At the same time they are all playing together coherently and musically - it all comes together – nothing is artificially separated like e.g. when listening to good studio monitors in near field. It just sounds natural. It´s hard to describe, but it sounds “right” to my ears and feels simply musical (whatever that means).

While browsing through my music library, I noticed that I have yet to discover a track these speakers can´t render convincingly. I have a very broad taste in very different genres. And with all previous speakers of mine, there have always been tracks which I just did not like sonically on these specific speakers. But with the Courantes, all of them are fine. Of course, they absolutely shine with acoustic instruments and voices. But I also like their presentation of electronic music which obviously has been artificially designed for regular dynamic speakers. The rendering is still very exciting. And they have pretty deep and impactful bass – much more than I had expected from only two small woofers. I don´t know where they are fetching this bass from.

Ok, all of this being said, the most important thing about speakers is whether they are able to reach me emotionally. In the end, it´s about music, not about hifi. And this is where the Courantes left me deeply impressed. When closing my eyes, it doesn´t take long and I am completely forgetting that I am listening to speakers. I sink into the music and drift away. You know, there is this calm state – almost like meditating – where there is nothing in this moment but you and the music? I have never heard a speaker which lets me sink into this state as easily as the Bayz. It´s almost a superpower of them. And in these moments, everything is there – all the emotions, the goosebumps, the joy and sadness – they are playing right into my heart. And these are the highest accolades I can give them.
 

musicfirst1

VIP/Donor
Mar 8, 2015
504
309
395
Canada
www.musicfirstdistribution.ca
Excellent Review!! I completely agree with your closing paragraph Dom.
I'm so happy we were able to get them to work in your room!

And even more exciting is, based on my experience, the speakers will continue to improve for weeks to come!
 
Last edited:
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Duke LeJeune

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
Jul 22, 2013
747
1,200
435
Princeton, Texas
The way they present the stage, instrument placement, spaciousness, recorded reverb and so on is very unique to each piece of music... Different recordings sound vastly different in this regard... there is a huge variety... Every track is a new world to discover.

You can feel the presence of the instruments and singers in the room in an amazing way. All sonic events are clearly separated from each other (throughout the whole frequency range!) and even when playing at the same place on the stage, they are super distinguishable from each other... It just sounds natural.

When closing my eyes, it doesn´t take long and I am completely forgetting that I am listening to speakers. I sink into the music and drift away. You know, there is this calm state – almost like meditating – where there is nothing in this moment but you and the music? I have never heard a speaker which lets me sink into this state as easily as the Bayz. It´s almost a superpower of them. And in these moments, everything is there – all the emotions, the goosebumps, the joy and sadness – they are playing right into my heart.

WOW!!

I tip my virtual hat to Zoltan for his brilliant concept and its brilliant execution.
 

adyc

VIP/Donor
Jan 5, 2013
873
399
973
This is the Counterpoint discussion, but as it seems like this thread has established itself as the main one for all about Bayz, I´m posting my impressions on the Courante (with 2.0 drivers) in here.


I have had the Courantes for three weeks now in my living room and spent the first two weeks with burning them in (yes, there was a very significant burn-in effect) and fixing some room issues. Unfortunately, the speakers are exciting my room in an unfortunate way on every position I can feasibly place them, resulting in a modal peak around 70Hz and a null around 110Hz. I guess the backfiring bass ports might play a role in this problem. Zoltán sent me port plugs which helped significantly, I added a pair of active bass traps and had to apply some digital room correction (via Acourate) to fix the issue. With all this being done, it ended up fine and critical listening could start.

First of all, I have to say, these are omni speakers. Like with all other omnis, I have auditioned (maybe the big MBLs to a lesser extent), the Bayz don´t jump directly at you on macro dynamic changes like big regular dynamic speakers do. Whether you consider this a con or a pro is up to the listener´s taste. I for myself like this “blown away” effect in some specific cases, but mostly I consider it a hifi effect which is kind of artificial – I don´t get this effect with unamplified live music, not even with a large orchestra. You only ever get something similar (but still different) if you are standing near a blazing drumkit.
That being said, the Courantes are very dynamic speakers, indeed. Micro dynamics are off the chart, as these are easily the fastest tweeters I have ever witnessed. The tweeter can fire sounds out of nowhere so fast, it can be startling.
Macro dynamics are also very good – just different than what you might be used to. Less impact, but a more natural response. Not sure, but this might vary a bit with the room you are in.

Imaging is amazing. I know it´s sometimes hard to make omnis image nicely. I am listening to the Courantes set about 3.8 meters wide with me being about 3.6 meters away from the speakers. This results in what some might call a larger than life stage, but I like it – it´s more like 5th row in concert compared to 20th. Anyway, this setup is tough to image even with conventional speakers. But I am amazed how well the Bayz are imaging. There is nothing lacking. Courantes are able to place sonic events perfectly in the center, everywhere all across the way from center to the speakers and even outside of the speakers.

The way they present the stage, instrument placement, spaciousness, recorded reverb and so on is very unique to each piece of music. I was browsing through my music library and discovering subtle differences I have never noticed before. Different recordings sound vastly different in this regard. Whether a voice sounds small and pinpointed or broad and large, whether its placed far back on the stage or intimately close – there is a huge variety. Same goes for the instruments and overall ambience. Every track is a new world to discover.

I guess one of the main strengths of these speakers is palpability. You can feel the presence of the instruments and singers in the room in an amazing way. All sonic events are clearly separated from each other (throughout the whole frequency range!) and even when playing at the same place on the stage, they are super distinguishable from each other. At the same time they are all playing together coherently and musically - it all comes together – nothing is artificially separated like e.g. when listening to good studio monitors in near field. It just sounds natural. It´s hard to describe, but it sounds “right” to my ears and feels simply musical (whatever that means).

While browsing through my music library, I noticed that I have yet to discover a track these speakers can´t render convincingly. I have a very broad taste in very different genres. And with all previous speakers of mine, there have always been tracks which I just did not like sonically on these specific speakers. But with the Courantes, all of them are fine. Of course, they absolutely shine with acoustic instruments and voices. But I also like their presentation of electronic music which obviously has been artificially designed for regular dynamic speakers. The rendering is still very exciting. And they have pretty deep and impactful bass – much more than I had expected from only two small woofers. I don´t know where they are fetching this bass from.

Ok, all of this being said, the most important thing about speakers is whether they are able to reach me emotionally. In the end, it´s about music, not about hifi. And this is where the Courantes left me deeply impressed. When closing my eyes, it doesn´t take long and I am completely forgetting that I am listening to speakers. I sink into the music and drift away. You know, there is this calm state – almost like meditating – where there is nothing in this moment but you and the music? I have never heard a speaker which lets me sink into this state as easily as the Bayz. It´s almost a superpower of them. And in these moments, everything is there – all the emotions, the goosebumps, the joy and sadness – they are playing right into my heart. And these are the highest accolades I can give them.
Is it possible to let us know the dimensions of your room?
 

Emperyan

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2020
32
32
83
43
Hi adyc,
sure, here is a scetch of the room with measurements.
hörraum.jpg
 

Zoltan Bay

Industry Expert
Mar 7, 2020
61
54
85
67
This is the Counterpoint discussion, but as it seems like this thread has established itself as the main one for all about Bayz, I´m posting my impressions on the Courante (with 2.0 drivers) in here.


I have had the Courantes for three weeks now in my living room and spent the first two weeks with burning them in (yes, there was a very significant burn-in effect) and fixing some room issues. Unfortunately, the speakers are exciting my room in an unfortunate way on every position I can feasibly place them, resulting in a modal peak around 70Hz and a null around 110Hz. I guess the backfiring bass ports might play a role in this problem. Zoltán sent me port plugs which helped significantly, I added a pair of active bass traps and had to apply some digital room correction (via Acourate) to fix the issue. With all this being done, it ended up fine and critical listening could start.

First of all, I have to say, these are omni speakers. Like with all other omnis, I have auditioned (maybe the big MBLs to a lesser extent), the Bayz don´t jump directly at you on macro dynamic changes like big regular dynamic speakers do. Whether you consider this a con or a pro is up to the listener´s taste. I for myself like this “blown away” effect in some specific cases, but mostly I consider it a hifi effect which is kind of artificial – I don´t get this effect with unamplified live music, not even with a large orchestra. You only ever get something similar (but still different) if you are standing near a blazing drumkit.
That being said, the Courantes are very dynamic speakers, indeed. Micro dynamics are off the chart, as these are easily the fastest tweeters I have ever witnessed. The tweeter can fire sounds out of nowhere so fast, it can be startling.
Macro dynamics are also very good – just different than what you might be used to. Less impact, but a more natural response. Not sure, but this might vary a bit with the room you are in.

Imaging is amazing. I know it´s sometimes hard to make omnis image nicely. I am listening to the Courantes set about 3.8 meters wide with me being about 3.6 meters away from the speakers. This results in what some might call a larger than life stage, but I like it – it´s more like 5th row in concert compared to 20th. Anyway, this setup is tough to image even with conventional speakers. But I am amazed how well the Bayz are imaging. There is nothing lacking. Courantes are able to place sonic events perfectly in the center, everywhere all across the way from center to the speakers and even outside of the speakers.

The way they present the stage, instrument placement, spaciousness, recorded reverb and so on is very unique to each piece of music. I was browsing through my music library and discovering subtle differences I have never noticed before. Different recordings sound vastly different in this regard. Whether a voice sounds small and pinpointed or broad and large, whether its placed far back on the stage or intimately close – there is a huge variety. Same goes for the instruments and overall ambience. Every track is a new world to discover.

I guess one of the main strengths of these speakers is palpability. You can feel the presence of the instruments and singers in the room in an amazing way. All sonic events are clearly separated from each other (throughout the whole frequency range!) and even when playing at the same place on the stage, they are super distinguishable from each other. At the same time they are all playing together coherently and musically - it all comes together – nothing is artificially separated like e.g. when listening to good studio monitors in near field. It just sounds natural. It´s hard to describe, but it sounds “right” to my ears and feels simply musical (whatever that means).

While browsing through my music library, I noticed that I have yet to discover a track these speakers can´t render convincingly. I have a very broad taste in very different genres. And with all previous speakers of mine, there have always been tracks which I just did not like sonically on these specific speakers. But with the Courantes, all of them are fine. Of course, they absolutely shine with acoustic instruments and voices. But I also like their presentation of electronic music which obviously has been artificially designed for regular dynamic speakers. The rendering is still very exciting. And they have pretty deep and impactful bass – much more than I had expected from only two small woofers. I don´t know where they are fetching this bass from.

Ok, all of this being said, the most important thing about speakers is whether they are able to reach me emotionally. In the end, it´s about music, not about hifi. And this is where the Courantes left me deeply impressed. When closing my eyes, it doesn´t take long and I am completely forgetting that I am listening to speakers. I sink into the music and drift away. You know, there is this calm state – almost like meditating – where there is nothing in this moment but you and the music? I have never heard a speaker which lets me sink into this state as easily as the Bayz. It´s almost a superpower of them. And in these moments, everything is there – all the emotions, the goosebumps, the joy and sadness – they are playing right into my heart. And these are the highest accolades I can give them.

Very nice post thank you! I think you grabbed the point, the most important thing: the music.

I am primarily a music lover and it is very important to me that my devices are able to emotionally touch the listener with the music.

Often, while listening to music, I completely go down to the alpha state, I only went through a similar one at a classical music concerts.
 

Rhapsody

VIP/Donor
Jan 16, 2013
3,366
6,279
2,535
Brooklyn NY
Rhapsody.Audio
Bayz Courante with full Kondo system......

IMG-20210301-WA0003.jpg
 

mcduman

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2014
125
4
250
hi,

i am really interested in these speakers. what is the minimum impedance?
 

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