Belt Drive Turntable sucks ? What do u thk

[audioblazer]

99% of us are using belt drive turntable . “ We don’t do belt drive turntables ? Why ? They sucks !! what do u think ?

DIRECT, IDLER AND BELT DRIVE TURNTABLES

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[Lampie519]

Another can of worms to be opened LOL ?

 

[audioblazer]

Unless we have vested interest , I am sure we can always discuss like an adult

 

[Lampie519]

I am sure we can always discuss like an adult

I am sure we can !

Actually i am out as i do not own a record player anymore.

Have fun !

Best wishes, Frank

 

[Audiophile Bill]

There are examples of fantastic belts, idlers, and direct drives. There examples of crap belts, idlers and direct drives.

Making blanket statements that all belts suck is used to get a reaction and / or marketing. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[audioblazer]

There are examples of fantastic belts, idlers, and direct drives. There examples of crap belts, idlers and direct drives.

Making blanket statements that all belts suck is used to get a reaction and / or marketing. Nothing more, nothing less.

After all he is selling the plinths for direct drive & idler drive . I doubt he has heard American sound or AF Zero

 

[Audiophile Bill]

After all he is selling the plinths for direct drive & idler drive . I doubt he has heard American sound or AF Zero

Hi,

No disrespect to OMA cos frankly I love their product designs etc but I find it mildly disingenuous myself to claim they are building these “turntables” where in reality (as you say) they are “only” building plinths. It is a very different thing entirely to be building the entire thing. Some might think that this is semantics but not me. Anyway - best of luck to OMA cos I find their vids and products really interesting.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've heard amazing belt drive...Vyger and Bergmann amongst others at Audiophile Bill's, and he promises me a real treat next time I visit.
Really loved the GP Monaco 1.5 and modded vintage Sony DDs that I've heard
Have a real soft spot for the amazing modded Garrard 301 and 401, and Lenco idlers I've heard.
Plus my own direct rim drive.
In 2013, you couldn't have sold me anything other than an idler...I was very close to seriously pursuing a Saskia.
Today, despite still being emotionally most drawn to idlers as a concept, I'm aware of the very real challenges to be overcome, and have become way more drivetrain agnostic.

 

[dcc]

Full of himself and he has an agenda. And actually, he only makes the plinth. Some more respect for his competitors would be welcome as well. Everything but class.

 

[cjfrbw]

Unless we have vested interest , I am sure we can always discuss like an adult

What fun would that be?//

 

[cjfrbw]

Funny, the new Yamaha GT 5000 turntable decided to go belt drive, causing all of the GT2000 fans to jump up on tables like school marms holding their skirts at a room full of mice. The generations of GT2000 adulators claimed it was cheaping out and a blow against the faith.

Apparently, the new gen Yamaha engineers believe that cogging is an audible thing.

Flash back to early 80’s, when digital was about to cut the head off of vinyl, the Japanese tables tried to make a major assault on specifications with direct drive turntables. The same table jumping marms all said that DD and the GT2000 were an abomination compared to belt drive.

Micro Seiko, who pioneered DD in the day and made the components for many of the hi end Japanese tables, eventually went back to belt drive for their higher end tables. No reason was stated that I ever heard.

My only DD table so far has been the ancient, unmodified Sony PS X70, and it sounds good. It might add some extra ‘energy’ in the upper midrange, but is that cogging? I don’t know, but it is not unwelcome.

It’s all a tempest in a teapot, because hi end vinyl is almost always about implementation and refinement. A gram of refinement is worth ten pounds of flash and assertion.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Funny, the new Yamaha GT 5000 turntable decided to go belt drive, causing all of the GT2000 fans to jump up on tables like school marms holding their skirts at a room full of mice. The generations of GT2000 adulators claimed it was cheaping out and a blow against the faith.

Apparently, the new gen Yamaha engineers believe that cogging is an audible thing.

Flash back to early 80’s, when digital was about to cut the head off of vinyl, the Japanese tables tried to make a major assault on specifications with direct drive turntables. The same table jumping marms all said that DD and the GT2000 were an abomination compared to belt drive.

Micro Seiko, who pioneered DD in the day and made the components for many of the hi end Japanese tables, eventually went back to belt drive for their higher end tables. No reason was stated that I ever heard.

My only DD table so far has been the ancient, unmodified Sony PS X70, and it sounds good. It might add some extra ‘energy’ in the upper midrange, but is that cogging? I don’t know, but it is not unwelcome.

It’s all a tempest in a teapot, because hi end vinyl is almost always about implementation and refinement. A gram of refinement is worth ten pounds of flash and assertion.

Interesting post. Another example is Brinkmann- their cheaper entry level models (Bardo and Oasis) are direct drives and their reference model, Balance, is belt too. From my perspective I radically prefer the Balance to the Bardo and Oasis. In fact I like the former and dislike the latter.

 

[PeterA]

I think there are likely quite a few examples of very good to excellent implementations of each typology, but it seems to get narrower when considering truly great tables.

Is there the same level of consensus for a direct drive table as there is for the EMT 927 and Saskia idlers or AirForce Zero and American Sound belt drives? Perhaps the Grand Prix Monaco 2.0 or Rockport? If we could narrow it down to 2-3 tables in each class, which type would be the most coveted?

 

[Direct Drive]

Micro Seiko, who pioneered DD in the day and made the components for many of the hi end Japanese tables, eventually went back to belt drive for their higher end tables. No reason was stated that I ever heard.

Micro did make elements of a fair number of machines and a few in their entirety. I think "pioneered" might be a little strong. JVC and TDK were the main motor pioneers. Other manufacturers had their own ideas and they subcontracted the work to Micro.
The main reason for these coming to and end was cost. These were statement products on which the likes of Kenwood, Sony, Denon, Onkyo etc lost substantial money on each one.
The technology filtered down, but only so much - mainly electronics.
Technics were the exception with the SP10, but this sold in bulk to radio stations.

Needless to say I think OMA are spouting a load of..... As observed, they really only make plinths and those are limited to specific chassis/TTs.

 

[microstrip]

I think there are likely quite a few examples of very good to excellent implementations of each typology, but it seems to get narrower when considering truly great tables.

Is there the same level of consensus for a direct drive table as there is for the EMT 927 and Saskia idlers or AirForce Zero and American Sound belt drives? Perhaps the Grand Prix Monaco 2.0 or Rockport? If we could narrow it down to 2-3 tables in each class, which type would be the most coveted?

Well, if we look outside the small world of a few WBF members we do not see the consensus you refer for any type of turntable. The list of great turntables in each category is long and can't be narrowed.

IMHO it is not possible to determine which are the most coveted turntables, even in WBF, unless we make a poll - and the only polls with a reasonable number of entries in WBF I can remeber are the ones on the Taiko Extreme and Wilson Audio users ...

BTW, once we own a certain piece of equipment we start noticing everyone who has a similar unit and risk getting a wrong view on its relative popularity - e.g. : I see a lot of BMWs in my neighborhood ...

 

[PeterA]

Well, if we look outside the small world of a few WBF members we do not see the consensus you refer for any type of turntable. The list of great turntables in each category is long and can't be narrowed.

Really? I made a couple of suggestions of each type. You claim the list is long in each. Can you name just seven turntables that are truly great of each type? Not merely very good to excellent, but the great tables. I am curious to know what you think are truly great turntables. How long is the list?

And why does OMA think there are no belt drives?

 

[audioblazer]

I think there are likely quite a few examples of very good to excellent implementations of each typology, but it seems to get narrower when considering truly great tables.

Is there the same level of consensus for a direct drive table as there is for the EMT 927 and Saskia idlers or AirForce Zero and American Sound belt drives? Perhaps the Grand Prix Monaco 2.0 or Rockport? If we could narrow it down to 2-3 tables in each class, which type would be the most coveted?

In my audio journey the best sound to my ears was playback from EMt 927 with Coralstone diamond on a 6 ways field coil drivers speakers

 

[jespera]

I’ve only heard mediocre belt drives. The list is long and boring and includes the usual suspects.

I trust great belt (or string) drives exist. Like really heavy ones a la: verdier, monster micros, etc. But ive never heard them.

Here’s a unicorn challenge: name a great belt/string drive (just drive) that can be had (new or used) for less than 10k usd. If thats too easy, try 5k usd.

Meanwhile heres a list of idlers and direct drives that can be had for reasonable money and plinthed and pimped to pretty much any level: Garrard 301/401, thorens TD 124, lenco L70/75, emt 930, dual 701, technics SP10/1200, top denon jvc sony kenwood dds, ...

 

[MrC.]

I own idlers like the td124, a micro seiki belt drive and a brinkmann bardo. Of them all the Brinkman is my usual go to for stereo and the micro seiki for mono. The thorens is currently not being used. They each have pluses and minuses. The micro is a belt drive but uses a silk woven belt, not a string, and I believe the "stiffness" or lack of flex to the belt gives it a fair dose of direct drive transient guts, with the advantage of motor isolation. The brinkmann bardo was purchased after I heard the three times more expensive balance and it in the same system using the same arm and carts from emt. The balance sounded lifeless and the bardo was exciting. Perhaps this is attributable to the rubber belt of the balance, and perhaps, like with my micro seiki, this would be ameliorated or cured by a "stiff" plastic belt like is now used on the Kuzma designs or the non stretchable silk belt of the micro seiki. In any event, two of the best turntables I have heard include the saskia, an idler with a massive platter, and the vpi direct drive, using a massively torqued dd motor.

I would agree that you need something to combat the friction of the stylus in the groove which seems small but proves powerful enough that we can hear a difference between turntables. The need for angular momentum is usually accomplished with a massively heavy platter but can also be found through a high torque motor. The best often comes when both are used. I read an article claiming that the three motors on the Audio Note turntable produced a torque equivalent to a rotating platter weighing a quarter ton. Not sure if that is true but it gives an explanation as to why dd can provide the benefits of high mass in a less massive turntable. I would personally avoid any rubber bands as the need for immediate torque is defeated by a stretchable rubber band. I do believe that immediate and constant torque or momentum is the recipe for great vinyl sound. How one gets there is up to you.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks Mr.C, may I ask what is your main choice of music for reference, and the rest of your system?