Can Horn Speakers Disappear like Planars, Stats, and Omnis? Is the Disappearance Act Subjective? Or based on Placement and Partnering Equipment?

DaveC

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I recall the big Magico horns could disappear like a small monitor speaker.


That's great, I have heard so many varied reports on them, but that's true of most horn speakers.

I am not surprised Alon would do an excellent job with their design though, I do admire many of his speakers.
 

Ron Resnick

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disappearance . . . I separate it from tone, bass, dynamics, etc. It is just like the speakers are not there and the sound comes from air. Elecrostats do that the best imo

+1
 

Ron Resnick

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Dear Bill,

Please put your pencil down, make two or three identical pairs of the current primary design, and send them into the audio world.
 

bonzo75

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I recall the big Magico horns could disappear like a small monitor speaker.

who heard them outside Munich except for Jazzhead?
 

bonzo75

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I've set up plenty of systems using both. If done properly both seem to work exactly as well. The one comment I get again and again about using the horns I do (Classic Audio Loudspeakers) is 'these things sound like electrostatics' because they are just as fast and just as transparent. FWIW the horn employs a field coil, which is the only other tech that can be as fast as an ESL and for exactly the same reason- the motive force does not sag when a signal is applied. Beyond that the diaphragm is beryllium and apparently has its first breakup at about 35KHz.

field coils were magical with Western electric. I have heard line magnetic FCs in the same WE 16a horn and they disappointed. There are people making their own FCs on forums like just like they do any component DIY. Slagle makes his own too first he did them with Lowther and then with Radian.

FC is not a magic bullet unless, like everything it's a great FC like WE. How many really make FC today? Beryllium can be easily obtained from TAD/Radian or adding the truextent to other drivers. As can paper.
 
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Lampie519

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The only time i had the experience of "disapearing speakers" at a hifi show was with the Omnidrive demo.
Unfortunately i have not heard this system at my place and do not know how much the front end was responible of the experience and how much the speakers alone.

Omnidrive C | Bloomline Acoustics
 

mullard88

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bonzo75,

I am sure others have heard the magico horns. They were on display for more than a year in The Sound Chamber in 2009. I listened to the pair every time I visited Hong Kong which at that time was almost monthly. I actually bumped into Alon Wolf while he was setting it up in The Sound Chamber.
 

bonzo75

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bonzo75,

I am sure others have heard the magico horns. They were on display for more than a year in The Sound Chamber in 2009. I listened to the pair every time I visited Hong Kong which at that time was almost monthly. I actually bumped into Alon Wolf while he was setting it up in The Sound Chamber.

Good to know, there were many threads here but no reports
 

DaveC

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field coils were magical with Western electric. I have heard line magnetic FCs in the same WE 16a horn and they disappointed. There are people making their own FCs on forums like just like they do any component DIY. Slagle makes his own too first he did them with Lowther and then with Radian.

FC is not a magic bullet unless, like everything it's a great FC like WE. How many really make FC today? Beryllium can be easily obtained from TAD/Radian or adding the truextent to other drivers. As can paper.

Yeah, it seems like it's one of those things where implementation is most important.

I've heard excellent drivers with all types of motors, AlNiCo is great, Neo can be great, Ferrite can be alright I guess. ;).... AER's new 5-figure drivers are Neo AFAIK.

People pay big $ to get just the right sag via rectifier tubes. :)
 
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microstrip

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Yeah, it seems like it's one of those things where implementation is most important.

I've heard excellent drivers with all types of motors, AlNiCo is great, Neo can be great, Ferrite can be alright I guess. ;).... AER's new 5-figure drivers are Neo AFAIK.

People pay big $ to get just the right sag via rectifier tubes. :)

The same way people use tube controllers in turntable motors ...

More seriously, field coils used with a properly adjustable power supply give us an excellent way of tuning the bass of speakers to our rooms - we can tune for efficiency and damping with great precision and range. The Focal EVO Grande Utopia includes a 16" field coil bass unit with an adjustable supply and has great bass quality.
 
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DaveC

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The same way people use tube controllers in turntable motors ...

More seriously, field coils used with a properly adjustable power supply give us an excellent way of tuning the bass of speakers to our rooms - we can tune for efficiency and damping with great precision and range. The Focal EVO Grande Utopia includes a 16" field coil bass unit with an adjustable supply and has great bass quality.

Agreed, good point! That's an interesting solution for adjusting bass for the room.


Maybe they should do the same for their tweeters... :eek: Mostly kidding, I like the flat top end in the right room, you can put them in room with a little more absorption without getting that "dead" sound. They have a rep for being hot due to less than optimal show setups, imo.
 

flez007

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They do based on my experience (Avantgarde & Sadurni), but VERY directional and a challenge to integrate compression drivers with cones.
 

caesar

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I agree with Caesar about the general differences between ELS and MBL, and you do need good sources and amplification for best result, but a lot of stats have a mid-bass leanness and plasticity when played loudly even with good amps. CLS especially, have owned mine since 1986. :)

Yes, the leanness is definitely a problem with electrostats like Martin Logan CLX. I do not know too many amps that can fix that "fake, see-through transparency". But guys who love their detail must love that.

And many guys who have a psychological rule in their head that the gear they buy must measure great, before they can trust their ears, frequently pair stats with Sanders amps. But Sanders on stats (I've heard them on a number of Logan models and on Sanders' own speakers) and on MBLs gets the tonal balance WRONG- way too lean! Male opera singers sound like eunuch versions of themselves... a cruel time machine indeed... (but the measurement first guys deserve that. :) )

On the other hand, people say Atma-spheres are lean, but when I heard them on hybrid Logans and on Soundlabs, they are one of the greatest combinations in audio today regardless of price.
_______

And as far MBLs disappearing, when visitors come to my house, they do not realize that my MBLs are speakers... they assume the bass traps in the corners are the speakers, while the MBLs are some kind of art or lamps.
 

microstrip

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Yes, the leanness is definitely a problem with electrostats like Martin Logan CLX. I do not know too many amps that can fix that "fake, see-through transparency". But guys who love their detail must love that.
Yes, but as you say, a few systems can make them sing. IMHO we should focus our views on such conditions.
And many guys who have a psychological rule in their head that the gear they buy must measure great, before they can trust their ears, frequently pair stats with Sanders amps. But Sanders on stats (I've heard them on a number of Logan models and on Sanders' own speakers) and on MBLs gets the tonal balance WRONG- way too lean! Male opera singers sound like eunuch versions of themselves... a cruel time machine indeed... (but the measurement first guys deserve that. :) )
I am an optimist - IMHO most people who known about measurements know that electrostatics, being a capacitive and inductive load along the frequency are an impedance nightmare and applying technical rules to such matching is beyond our usual thumb rules.

On the other hand, people say Atma-spheres are lean, but when I heard them on hybrid Logans and on Soundlabs, they are one of the greatest combinations in audio today regardless of price.
_______

And as far MBLs disappearing, when visitors come to my house, they do not realize that my MBLs are speakers... they assume the bass traps in the corners are the speakers, while the MBLs are some kind of art or lamps.
Fully agree with your opinion on improperly used Atma-Sphere and SoundLab.
 

Lampie519

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electrostatics, being a capacitive and inductive load along the frequency are an impedance nightmare and applying technical rules to such matching is beyond our usual thumb rules.
Only if not driven directly (transformerless) i want to add..
 

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microstrip

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Only if not driven directly (transformerless) i want to add..
IMHO life insurance is mandatory for such practice! I have dreamed about driving the ESL63 directly. Are those the Acoustat DD OTLs?
 
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Lampie519

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Are those the Acoustat DD OTLs?
These are Acoustats with custom build OTL's (of my own design and build), I have rebuild them last year during "Corona Holidays"
 

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microstrip

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These are Acoustats with custom build OTL's (of my own design and build), I have rebuild them last year during "Corona Holidays"
Congratulations! They look fantastic. What is the voltage of the power supply?:eek:
 
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Lampie519

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The voltage on the tubes is about 3kV and on the foil about 7kV.
It is something that need to be respected but not feared otherwise this will not be possible to build.
 

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