Can solid state tape electronics equal their tube equivalents ?

flez007

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Aug 31, 2010
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I have lived in both worlds, first having a Technics/EAR 1570 modified by Tim de Paravicini (all SS), and now a modified Technics 1500 by TP and an external tape head preamp from Bottle Head (Eros)...so... The EAR deck was more capable resolving both frequency extremes, and the TP/Eros is incredible rendering midrange textures and dynamics. i could live with any of them, a matter of preferences and system synergy I guess.
 

mep

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I bet the EAR deck electronics were much more quiet.
 

mep

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sterile or lacking tube colorations? And I say that as a big tube fan (except when they blow and take a part with them or when I have to buy a full-set of output tubes). For the here and now, I'm using an ARC PH-3SE phono section which is a hybrid unit and I'm trying to decide whether it sounds sterile or it is lacking tube colorations even though it has 3 of them.
 

flez007

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To my ears the tubed-based head preamp has more detail and life-like presentation, during a drum kick for example - I can hear more than just the note, but the way the instrument reacts to the kick, the stick hitting the surface of the drum, how it keeps moving and vibrating until the next note arrives, with the EAR this level of realism was less evident.

If that example applies for "coloration" i like it!
 

RogerD

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sterile or lacking tube colorations? And I say that as a big tube fan (except when they blow and take a part with them or when I have to buy a full-set of output tubes). For the here and now, I'm using an ARC PH-3SE phono section which is a hybrid unit and I'm trying to decide whether it sounds sterile or it is lacking tube colorations even though it has 3 of them.

Hi Mark,

Now that's a good question. Can electronics be totally neutral and not be colored? If the electronics have uncommon clarity,dynamics and transparency it will not leave the listener with the impression of sounding "sterile', it will sound amazingly right. But that's a hard thing to accomplish and of course you have to experience it first to know. Just spouting off my opinion as I'm dealing with such a situation now.

Another way to ask the question, if the sound is sterile is it really neutral or colored in a way that is more subtle.
 
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mep

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Roger-You and Micro bring up some good points that I really don’t know the answer to yet. I like the sound of my Counterpoint SA-2 pre-preamp with the phono stage built into the SA-5.1 more than I like the sound of the ARC PH-3SE. However, the SA-2 is humming like crazy and it needs a cap job. The SA-2 sounds like what Micro described. If it’s coloration, please give me more of it because it sounds so damn real. The ARC sounds polite and sterile in comparison. I would think that some would say the ARC is far more neutral, but I don’t think that *neutrality* is telling the whole truth.

Last night I was listening to a bunch of LPs and Hi-Rez digital and I thought it all sounded really good. And then I put on my Sonny Rollins 15 ips 2 track tape played back through my Ampex 350s and the sound jumped to a whole other level. I can’t remember who it was on this forum that said that playing tapes at audio shows shouldn’t be allowed because his CDs he brought with him to hear sounded like crap after hearing a tape. I get that. It isn’t fair. Like Bruce said, it’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I wish I had a zillion tapes.
 

fas42

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Jan 8, 2011
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Another way to ask the question, if the sound is sterile is it really neutral or colored in a way that is more subtle.
As a tidbit to add, I would hold my hand up high for coloured. Live sound is never sterile, and the recordings, no matter how bad, still include the clues that tell your brain that real human beings, enjoying what they were doing, created the captured sounds. So sterile, or dead, boring, lifeless sound is certainly telling you that the system is doing something wrong ...

Frank
 

RogerD

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Roger-You and Micro bring up some good points that I really don’t know the answer to yet. I like the sound of my Counterpoint SA-2 pre-preamp with the phono stage built into the SA-5.1 more than I like the sound of the ARC PH-3SE. However, the SA-2 is humming like crazy and it needs a cap job. The SA-2 sounds like what Micro described. If it’s coloration, please give me more of it because it sounds so damn real. The ARC sounds polite and sterile in comparison. I would think that some would say the ARC is far more neutral, but I don’t think that *neutrality* is telling the whole truth.

Last night I was listening to a bunch of LPs and Hi-Rez digital and I thought it all sounded really good. And then I put on my Sonny Rollins 15 ips 2 track tape played back through my Ampex 350s and the sound jumped to a whole other level. I can’t remember who it was on this forum that said that playing tapes at audio shows shouldn’t be allowed because his CDs he brought with him to hear sounded like crap after hearing a tape. I get that. It isn’t fair. Like Bruce said, it’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I wish I had a zillion tapes.

As Ray Charles said "gimme some sound with Balls". when you need a seatbelt for your listening chair,I think you have arrived,lol. Tape is King!
 

DexterMiller

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Jan 20, 2019
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The resultant tube microphony problems from the amount of gain a (reproducer) tape head needs almost outweighs the notion of thinking different preamplification tech -on such a small scale voltage level- is going to change the line signal markedly (vs. talking a power amp). So many of those (circa) pre-1966-era decks (then ALL TUBE) would, invariably, have; either: a minor buzzing (if the output level pots were turned up beyond a certain point) or the whirring of the motor's AC could always be heard somewhere bleeding into the signal path. When transistors came along, none of those problems (except if the rtr was a budget, self-contained model having its own speakers).

Now, of course, the quality of Solid State varied A LOT at the time; in, how, it was implemented. Many a '70s Japanese decks started using (now obsolete) ICs (the Toshiba 7122 and Sanyo LD3141 equalization stage opamps being total noisy junk parts today) and...in my own experience of (once) having had: a $1500, T-O-T-L Akai GX-400DSS (not "4000"...but "400"; three speed, three motor, Quad, dual capstan, 10 1/2" deck) vs....the semi-pro Magnecord 1024 (from 1965) I have rebuilt and kept: the ten-year-older Magnecord with Germanium transistors sounds five-times better in "presence"/dynamics/stereo separation/etc.

Why(?) --- 1. (obviously) Nortronics heads from the '60s were far better than the Akai "GX" gimmick and, also, because --- 2. a SINGLE channel's preamp card -in the Magnecord- IS BIGGER than the entire playback amp circuit board for a pair of BOTH channels in the Akai(!).

Another thing I found out, from playing around 30 years with this stuff, has been: connecting even the most humble rtr DIRECTLY TO A POWER AMP makes the biggest leap in the "forwardness" of the deck's sound performance and causes a drastic fall of the background noise level. My first experiment of that involved a Teac A-2300 hooked directly to a Dynaco Stereo 400 with A.R. speakers. It was a revelation at the time...the improvement was like having a brand new system.

This kind of arrangement makes one a prisoner to the warts-and-all quality of the source (without any reliance on tone controls) but, it delivers so much more a rewarding experience with a great recording.
 
Jan 18, 2012
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I did exactly as Tony Ky Ma decribes and hooked an all out tube buffer to my A80R reprocard after the pre and eq section
(to be specific tapped signal from R47 ) and only then I could get a glimpse of the differences/tuning possibilities that opened up.It´s more about the wanted flavour than a revolution.Since I don´t have a stack of WE437 and the real estate to spread a crazy stack of components all over the living room floor, I live very well with my modified reprocards from Todor Dimitrov at Mastertapesoundlab.
One should not underestimate the original Studer design and the nearness to the headblock.
Btw my 2 A80RCs are also rewired in the audiopath
Some of the flavour that appeared when tube buffering are also obtainable to a certain extent by selecting components on the original repro card.e.g using Elna Cerafine 2.200µF in C34 and C35 and Nichicon Muse NP 100µF in C31 bypassed by a MK1837 0,1 µF...
as a starter........
best
Leif
 
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