CD Ripping: Sound Quality Comparisons Between File Playback & Optical Disc Playback

tmallin

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I finally decided to rip my 1,000+ CDs to files. I know, I know—I'm 10 or 20 years behind the times on this. It's not that I hoped to get much better sound this way than the Tidal equivalent. But it finally occurred to me that if I ripped my CDs to files, I could probably store or even donate the CDs and one or both of the Davidson-Whitehall Store-a-Disc solid natural cherry CD cabinets that I have in my small dedicated-to-audio-listening-room converted bedroom. While CDs in these cabinets provide pretty good diffusion, it's not the same as treating those wall areas with dedicated diffusers, abfusers, or absorbers. A softer room is a better room, especially when the room, like mine, is only about 11 feet wide, putting my ears at most about 5.5 feet from the side walls.

A Truly Local Solution

Also, by having waited this long, I won't even have to add a computer to my audio system or use a LAN, ethernet, USB cables, Wi-Fi, or even a portable hard drive with moving parts to access the files.

CDs average about 650 MB of data each. A thousand CDs in uncompressed form would thus occupy about 650 GB of data. I thus can rip 1,000 GB (a terabyte) of CD data to just two 512 gigabyte USB stick solid-state thumb drives. Recent price drops in such sticks now have brought the price of the Patriot Supersonic Rage 2 sticks I chose down to a "reasonable" $150 each. My Oppo UDP-205 has two USB3 ports in the back just for connecting to stored files on drives. If it turns out that I need more than two sticks, I can either plug a third into the front panel USB2 port or add a four-port USB3 hub to one of the rear ports.

Easy Remote Control

The Oppo Media Control app on my iPhone X provides easy-peasy location and playback of all the stored files. No extra remote control is required and the Oppo input selection doesn't even have to be changed from Blu-Ray Drive. Truly the lazy man's approach to music playback—combining Tidal and internet radio streaming from the Auralic Aries G2, AirPlay, Spotify Connect, and CD files all controlled from my iPhone while sitting in the listening chair.

Ripping Progress

Not that I have all the CDs ripped yet. That is a tedious but not difficult process which could take me many weeks. But I've started and am making good progress with at least 350 down at this writing. I started with my 55 or so Reference Recordings HDCD discs since the Oppo won't decode those and I'm thus limited to Tidal replay of those programs. I have also ripped all my Reference Recordings HRx recordings, my binaural CD recordings, and my libraries of Mercury Living Presence, RCA Living Stereo, and Cello Audio Recordings CDs. I have always kept those CDs filed physically separate in those groups since they share unique sonic as well as historical significance in my mind. Now I'm ripping my general CD holdings.

Of course, if you specialize in high-res downloads, you'll need more disc space than what I've described. Each 24/172 HRx disc is about 4.5 Gigs, compared to the 650 MB CD average. But since the bulk of my disc collection is ordinary Redbook 44/16 CD, this method will work for me.

Sonic Comments are Thin on the Ground

I've read quite a bit about computer audio, but the comments about comparative audio quality between CD playback and the playback of ripped files often are not clear. Frequently there are no such direct sonic comparisons between disc and file playback of the same material. Sometimes there are comments, but the electronic path to the speakers seems much different for the two sources or is not completely specified if specified at all. Other times the issue of comparative sonic quality is obfuscated by meanderings about the sonic contributions of ripping method, software, hardware, etc., without actually dealing with the question of how the ripped result at best sounds compared to playback of the original CDs in a decent CD player.

I frequently get the distinct impression that the emphasis of many computer audio comments is on the tech itself and the assumption that of course you want/need to transfer all the data from your antiquated optical discs to a modern hard drive/NAS/LAN system because that would obviously be modern and therefore better since digital technology has come so far in the intervening years since the Redbook CD standard was adopted. That's about as true as the assumption that modern remasterings of old recordings will automatically sound better than the originals because, well, because those doing the recent remasterings have much more powerful digital editing devices at hand. This assumption that newer is better assumes that the modern remasterers have musical and sonic tastes equal to or superior to those who originally worked with the artists and heard their performance live and could compare the performance to the playback quality. Even if the recording was of material where a live performance never existed (e.g., it was put together track by track on a mixer), it still assumes the quality of musical and sonic tastes of the remasterers is at least as good as the original folks.

Then there are those who comment on and extensively compare the power of modern programs to organize your music collection and gather together all sorts of information about the music and artists in that collection, as well as interconnect and sort various items within the collection in ways of your choosing. Most everyone seems to moan that the classical music collection cataloging ability of most programs is seriously lacking, with such music being treated as the poor step-sister of the more popular genres that seem to make up 95%+ of the collections of most computer audiophiles. All well and good, but how does it sound?

There are also some articles about the equalization and other effects built into some software aimed at music playback. Now, I'm all for using equalization to help recording playback sound more natural, but that is just comparing audio box equalization with the equivalent tools available in software at a computer work station.

Sometimes, as in a few articles in The Absolute Sound, there are sonic comparisons. But these are usually by people who apparently don't seem to be listening for the things or in the ways I listen.

Well, comparative sonic comments are what I hope to provide. I intend to provide some clear commentary on the sonic benefits/problems of ripped files compared to the original CDs. My set up is near ideal for this since I will be using the same unit, the Oppo UDP-205, to read both the uncompressed lossless files on the USB sticks and the optical discs from which those files were directly ripped, there is no network, no additional wiring, and no wireless connections in the signal path. I will also be using the same DAC to decode the data, my Benchmark DAC3-HGC. Finally, the same connection between the Oppo and my Benchmark DAC3-HGC will be used: the HDMI output of the Oppo, through one-meter of Blue Jeans HDMI cable, to the Kanex Pro HDMI Audio-De-Embedder, through a one-meter Benchmark digital coax cable to the digital coax input of my Benchmark DAC3-HGC. For Redbook CD and HDCD files, I could also go straight from the Oppo's coaxial output via one meter of Benchmark digital coax cable straight into the Benchmark's coaxial digital input, bypassing the HDMI connections.

Ripping Equipment

For ripping, I'm using dBpoweramp Release 16.5 with the settings of the program set more or less as recommended by the maker of that program. I am deviating from the recommendations by ripping the files to FLAC with no compression at all rather than with Level 5 compression. Where possible, all files are certified Accurate rips by the proprietary program within dBPoweramp. So far, I've only run into a few tracks which will not rip as Accurate—most of my CDs are in pretty good shape, although they have been subjected to various after-market cleaners, treatments, and add-on rings over the years.

I am not using anything fancy as the ripping drive; I'm using the $30 Dell DW316. The computer involved is also nothing too fancy. It is a Microsoft Surface Pro (the newer version) with an i7-7660U @2.5 GHz CPU, 16 Gigs of RAM, and 1 terabyte of solid-state storage—high-end as the Surface Pro models go, I guess, but not a monster computer.

I do notice a significant difference in the speed at which dBpoweramp will rip various discs. The dBPoweramp program and Dell drive often seem to start out at about 4x speed and accelerate to 8 or 9x by the end. Other discs start at 10x or faster and end up at 23 or 24x. The Dell drive itself advertises 24x as its top reading speed. I think the drive/program often determines by preview the maximum speed at which the end of the disc (the outside edge) can be scanned, and then adopts a uniform rotation rate for the entire CD. This will cause the data read rate to be higher at the end of the CD than the beginning since the diameter of the "groove" gets much larger as playback progresses and pits and lands are placed at uniform distances from each other all along the way. What these ripping speed differences mean is that some discs can take at least ten minutes to rip, while others are done in about three minutes. Sometimes this maximum ripping speed seems to correlate highly with the CD label. For example, most Mercury Living Presence CDs rip relatively slower compared to most RCA Living Stereo CDs.

Sonic Comments to Follow

I'll refrain from any premature sonic comments at this early stage. Stay tuned to this thread for my sonic comments in future posts to this thread.
 

Paul Goodfield

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Good Morning

I'm anxious to hear your experiences in terms of sound quality changes. Any so far?
Paul
 
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LL21

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Bruce B

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make sure you are comparing the sound through the same DAC. Not all digital filters are created equal....
 
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microstrip

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It is a ceremony I can't really understand - why we must individually rip our CDs. Thousands of people loosing their time extracting the bits from the same CDs and then checking if they are exactly the same as a result confirmed statistically by other users.

As far as know, ripping time depends mainly on how many times the CD reader must read the blocks to get statistically valid results of no errors - its determined by CD condition, CD drive and software parameter configuration. Most rippers adjust the parameters during the rip.

And, at less in Europe, we are supposed to keep the CDs - we can not donate or sell them. Ownership of the physical media is mandatory.
 
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asiufy

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What do you suggest then?
You are right by all accounts, it is time consuming, and often the same ritual is repeated many times. But the record labels won't give us legal, bit-perfect downloads of our CDs, so that's all we've left to do...


cheers,
alex
 

tmallin

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As stated in my thread-starting post, yes, the idea here is to make the sonic path as similar as possible. It will be possible to compare the files to the CDs either through my Benchmark DAC3 HGC or through the DAC in my Oppo UDP-205. In all cases, the reading of the bits is done by the Oppo, either through its Blu-ray drive or through its USB 3 ports on the back of the unit. For playback via the Benchmark DAC, the Oppo's HDMI output feeds the Benchmark's coax digital input via my Kanex HDMI de-embedder. From the Benchmark DAC3, the signal goes via balanced analog into the Benchmark HPA4 line/headphone amp. For playback using the Oppo's internal DAC, I feed the Oppo's balanced analog outputs directly into another set of balanced analog inputs of my Benchmark HPA4.

All my discs are now ripped. As predicted, I was able to get everything onto two of the 512 GB Patriot Supersonic Rage 2 USB sticks with plenty of room to spare. I have plugged those into the two USB inputs in the back of the Oppo.

The only major learning curve during the ripping project was naming the folders. No single naming scheme seems optimal to me for both classical and pop music. The dBpoweramp default naming scheme is okay for pop, but terrible for classical discs. If I had it to do over again, I would consider different naming schemes on a disc-by-disc basis for easiest look up by top folder name. With more sophisticated playback software, or if I were using a video monitor in the system, perhaps this would not be a problem (I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but this is all new to me), but the Oppo Media Control app on my iPhone X only shows the top folder name as you scroll through until you pick a program. I will probably just go through and rename some of the top folders which were inadvertently given enigmatic names by dBpoweramp (such as the name of a conductor or soloist) before I began to catch on and modify the default names on a disc-by-disc basis.

In theory (at least the theory accepted by most audio engineers), as long as the bits in the files match the bits on the discs, if the same DAC is used to control the playback timing of those bits, the file playback should sound identical from the files or the discs, at least if the playback signal path prior to the DAC is similar and I've tried to make it as similar as I know how. The AccurateRip function of the dBpoweramp program provides a measure of confidence that the ripped files are bit-for-bit copies of the bits on the discs. Playback jitter should be the same since the timing will be controlled by the same DAC in my comparisons. Some may think that the computer files have an advantage over "live" playback from the optical disc in that the files are certain to be bit accurate, but any given read from the optical disc may not be. However, for most optical discs, the ripping to files done at high speed (4X to 24X normal playback speed) on the El Cheapo Dell DVD drive matched according to AccurateRip on the first pass. I imagine the Blu-ray reader of my Oppo is much more capable of reading CDs and other discs than the Dell, so it really shouldn't be an issue for the Oppo to read the disc in a bit-perfect manner each time.

One thing I didn't realize when I set out to compare the sound of files with disc playback using my Oppo: It seems impossible to switch quickly from the USB stick playback to the disc playback. Once USB playback is engaged, that mode is "sticky" in that there is no way to switch the output of the player to a synced disc playback. In fact, I don't think I can even get the player to play a disc while it is playing from the USB stick. I have to stop the USB playback and close the Oppo Media Control app first before the disc drive will operate. That process, plus cuing up the disc to the part I just listened to from the USB stick takes up to a minute or so.

Initial sonic impressions: So far, sonic differences are truly minimal. No night and day differences and sometimes I've even been fooled as to which source was playing since the Oppo remote control controls both the disc and USB playback once the USB playback is started up. Occasionally disc playback seems to have greater detail, clarity, and greater high frequency smoothness, as well as better replication of hall sound and recording noises in the venue or from the analog tape hiss. I have yet to feel that the file sounded better than the corresponding disc playback. But, again, it's very early in my experiments and the differences I occasionally think I hear seem quite tiny to me.

Stay tuned . . . .
 

microstrip

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It is an endless debate that lasts since long. Results of listening tests of physical media versus files are system dependent and IMHO nothing can be extrapolated to other systems. Results will probably depend on the methodology used for evaluation.

In my system, unfortunately CD rips sound inferior to the playback of physical media. :(
 
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Al M.

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tmallin

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It is an endless debate that lasts since long. Results of listening tests of physical media versus files are system dependent and IMHO nothing can be extrapolated to other systems. Results will probably depend on the methodology used for evaluation.

In my system, unfortunately CD rips sound inferior to the playback of physical media. :(

You say that the relative sonic quality of ripped files versus disc playback "is an endless debate." Could you please provide a few links to such debates? I'd be interested in reviewing them and I'm sure others would, too.
 

microstrip

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You say that the relative sonic quality of ripped files versus disc playback "is an endless debate." Could you please provide a few links to such debates? I'd be interested in reviewing them and I'm sure others would, too.

We just have to enter the word "ripping" in the search box of WBF and most of the threads refer to this subject. Or " CD transport" .

Many years ago we had prescriptions for ripping - what hardware and software should be used. And even better, people were burning copies that sound better than original CDs to use in their transports. I did a few, until I found that reflectivity of copies was much lower than from normal CDs and lasers were being operated at much higher power to read it, reducing their life significantly.

A few recent WBF threads on it :

Will ripped CDs really equal the musicality of a great CD player?

Is SACD playback or ripping bit perfect?

Help me beat my CD Transport

The end of the CD

A $42,000 transport.

Is there a Michael Fremer of CD transports? If no, DEAR GOD PLEASE SEND US ONE!!!!

I think I can say that most WBF owners of DCS Vivaldi having tried or owning the transport expressed the opinion that they prefer the physical media over the ripped files. Unfortunately I have not yet read opinions of MSB Sellect II and new transport owners and Lampizator does not have a horse in this race ... :)
 
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Empirical Audio

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In my 37 years of engineering experience, there is no debate, just the facts. Like so many things on the web, there is a lot of misinformation out there, so be careful what you put stock in.

You particular experiment is not very interesting because everything of consequence is buried in the Oppo and your DAC reclocks everything. The comparison teaches only that these two methods of playback using the Oppo sound similar using that particular DAC, not that CD playback is inferior or superior to playing ripped files from a server or computer system. It is obvious that there is a lot of ground you need to cover to understand what each media requires to deliver exceptional performance. For instance:

Sonos:
If you were to instead use a Sonos for file playback followed by a Synchro-Mesh reclocker to reduce jitter from 800psec to 7psec, followed by a quality BNC-BNC coax cable to your DAC, you would generally get much better SQ, actually world-class. However, the one thing that prevents your sources from sounding any different is the reclocking inside your DAC. It may not matter what source you use or how good your cables are. All sources will probably sound the same. This is why I highly recommend avoiding DAC's with reclocking technology inside. Good options include Metrum and Audio Note.

USB:
If you were to use a good playback software like Amarra or Audirvana on a Mac and use a good USB interface like the Berkeley USB converter or the Empirical Audio USB converter combined with a good USB cable like the Wireworld Platinum and this USB regenerator in the cable, you would be shocked at the difference between the CD and this file playback:
https://sotm-usa.com/collections/sotm-ultra/products/copy-of-tx-usbultra-regenerator-1
Again, if you use S/PDIF coax input, the results will probably be identical due to reclocking in the DAC. If you use the USB interface on the DAC, it will probably not be as good as these external converters. Worth a try though, but only if the USB interface in the DAC bypasses the reclocking.

Ethernet:
Alternately, if you were to use a good Ethernet renderer like the Interchange, you could play all sample-rates including hi-res and get even higher quality playback.

Transport:
It is possible to use a transport and spin CD's and get really low jitter, provided that you add a Synchro-Mesh in the coax cable and use BNC-BNC coax cables of no less than 1.5m in length. See my white-paper:
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

Here are the jitter plots of an Oppo transport before and after the Synchro-Mesh:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0

The thing to learn here is that jitter is the #1 issue with digital and it can be minimized whether you are using a transport or playing ripped or downloaded files. They can both sound world-class with the same jitter when feeding a DAC that has no reclocking on the S/PDIF coax input. There is nothing magical about spooling files or spinning an optical disk. They both deliver the same data in the same way. The way to optimize SQ for digital is to attack the jitter. Using all-in-one devices, cheap coax cables and reclocking DACs is not the optimum way to get there. Not that you need to spend a fortune, but at least $275 for a good silver BNC coax and $700 for the reclocker. These are much more important than the Oppo or Sonos or any other source, whether files or spinning CD's.

And just FYI, it's not the same thing to play a non-lossy compressed file and compare this to an uncompressed CD spinning. This is why I rip and play only .wav files. Your system has to be pretty refined to hear the difference though.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 
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microstrip

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In my 37 years of engineering experience, there is no debate, just the facts. Like so many things on the web, there is a lot of misinformation out there, so be careful what you put stock in.
(...)
Steve N.
Empirical Audio

You do not quote what and who you are exactly answering, but are you saying that in a subjective hobby there are no debates, but just the facts?
 

3rdRock

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[QUOTE="Empirical Audio, post: 537541, member: 10089"
And just FYI, it's not the same thing to play a non-lossy compressed file and compare this to an uncompressed CD spinning. This is why I rip and play only .wav files. Your system has to be pretty refined to hear the difference though.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio[/QUOTE]

I was wondering if anyone was going to point this out. General belief is that there is no difference in sound quality between FLAC and WAV, but there certainly is! I discovered this myself several years back after running my own comparisons before ripping my entire CD collection to digital. The differences were actually easily dicernable to me on an average system then, which made me realize that as my system evolved and improved in future years, there would be even more of a difference. Why compromise sound quality for smaller file size... file storage space is cheap compared to everything else in this hobby!
 

microstrip

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I was wondering if anyone was going to point this out. General belief is that there is no difference in sound quality between FLAC and WAV, but there certainly is! I discovered this myself several years back after running my own comparisons before ripping my entire CD collection to digital. The differences were actually easily dicernable to me on an average system then, which made me realize that as my system evolved and improved in future years, there would be even more of a difference. Why compromise sound quality for smaller file size... file storage space is cheap compared to everything else in this hobby!

Some people will tell you that if you notice differences between FLAC and WAV its a playback system fault ... Bit exact systems should be able to sound the same ...

I expect that as digital systems evolve differences that are only explained by digital voodoo vanish, and differences creeated to please listener preference become more deterministic. But it seems we not close to it, so we must pick what pleases us most at this moment.
 

asiufy

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Some people will tell you that if you notice differences between FLAC and WAV its a playback system fault ... Bit exact systems should be able to sound the same ...

I expect that as digital systems evolve differences that are only explained by digital voodoo vanish, and differences creeated to please listener preference become more deterministic. But it seems we not close to it, so we must pick what pleases us most at this moment.

Sure, "some people" can say that, but they'd be wrong.
It's not "digital voodoo", it's just noise. FLACs take processing power to decode, while there's nothing to decode in AIFF/WAV. More processing power employed = more noise. Simple.
Using FLAC for your own files, or any kind of compression, defeats the purpose of having a high-end audio system.
Sure, there might be a day where DACs will be completely immune to this kind of noise. But until then, FLAC is pointless.
 
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Bruce B

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As Micro said, there is no difference between FLAC and WAV.... the difference is in the playback system. The way the software converts the FLAC file into something you can listen to. Most Digital Audio Workstations will allow you to add (same size as WAV) or subtract (zip it as small as an MP3 file) as much compression as you want for a FLAC file.
 

sefischer1

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Sure, "some people" can say that, but they'd be wrong.
It's not "digital voodoo", it's just noise. FLACs take processing power to decode, while there's nothing to decode in AIFF/WAV. More processing power employed = more noise. Simple.
Using FLAC for your own files, or any kind of compression, defeats the purpose of having a high-end audio system.
Sure, there might be a day where DACs will be completely immune to this kind of noise. But until then, FLAC is pointless.
I've found in the past that the use of WAV files inhibited the ability to apply database tags which allow for the pleasing human interface under most music browsers/managers and servers like minim. Is this an issue of the past? Then there's the issue of Apple formats vs Windows formats which aren't supported on one or the other. Ultimately I've settled on .aif and .dsf formats.
 

sefischer1

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I've lately been using the latest AURALIC Aries G2 feeding a Vega G2 using their recommend Lightning Link (Audioquest HDMI) interface. I was surprised to find a consistent difference between Roon sourced rendering vs Auralic's Lightning sourced rendering. The latter sounding consistently more "beautiful", like the sparkle of light on cascading water. AURALIC chalks it up to a difference in the processing of the signal and says the difference should become moot when they fully integrate the Roon processing into the Aries. Got me. But in the meantime, I use Roon to search, study, select, and casually listen, but will use Lightning for attentive listening.
 

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