"Circle of audiophile confusion..."

Gregadd

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Apr 20, 2010
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yes i am confused. there seems to be a confession. that well measured neutral systems sound bad. Certainly we know that can't be. If it measures good it must sound good. if it does not it is because audiophiles are the delusional followers of some golden eared cultists. Lately it seems they have come full circle. It turns out audiophiles were hearing something. If ewe make an improvement and hearing new,it no longer our bias our imagination. It was there all the time we just did not notice it. We are not delusional. It is the fault of bad recordings analog sounds better than digital because of better recording techniques.
In he circle of audiophile confusion we don't understand. But wait, riddle me this Batman.. The recordings can't be all bad. Audiophiles jlve our recordings and our systems.
I remain confused.
Edit: Sorry i was not aware this had been posted. I thought it remained in draft status.
 
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Shuggie

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Sep 9, 2020
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As one of my good friends in the audio industry says:

"if it measures well and sounds good, then it is good" : "if it measures badly and sounds bad then it is bad" : "if it measures badly and sounds good, then it could be improved" : "if it measures well but sounds bad then it is bad"
 
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Gregadd

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Put the goal post where ever you want . Just don't move it after the kick.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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great sources deserve honest systems. but measurements do not prove honesty, but only assist in finding it when needed. fine tuning by ear is the answer for me. our ears are the final truth.

let the recordings fall where they may.
 
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thedudeabides

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Jan 16, 2011
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Agree with ML. Good audio systems should not have sonic signature per se but clearly reveal the differences between different recordings. We all know the perils of measurements which may or may not indicate the musical capabilities of any system.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
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If bad recordings are making your system sound bad the solution is simple. Find or make good ones. Audiophiles have done for decades.
If there is something that was already there we just did not hear it, then why did we not? Either we were not paying attention. It maybe some audiophiles overlooked it. Somebody was paying attention. The other reason something was masking it. So that the person who created the product that "unmasked" it realized something was missing and created a product that allowed the necessary transparency.
 

Gregadd

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Agree with ML. Good audio systems should not have sonic signature per se but clearly reveal the differences between different recordings. We all know the perils of measurements which may or may not indicate the musical capabilities of any system.
yet they all do. I get your point.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
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The late great Harry Peason of the absolute said he listened to his copy of L. Kijie so may times it might be worn through. It is unlikely he was not paying attention. Moreover his list of super discs is legendary.
 

the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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We listened to and experienced music then...

we listened to our components, we listened to our recordings, we listened to our room and we listened to the sound of our systems (its very easy to get trapped in these parts) then...

we are led back to listening and the experience of music. The end...

rinse wash repeat... rinse wash repeat... rinse wash repeat... etc etc
 
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kernelbob

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2011
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I suggest that there is a false dichotomy between the "objective" and "subjective" camps. In my experience, the key has been to determine which objective measurements are most closely correlated with the attributes that are most important to the process whereby the brain synthesizes a representation of the objective sonic world in its subjective model of the world.

For example, years ago there was of course the dogma that a system with lower harmonic distortion will sound better that one with higher distortion numbers. In my youth, I made multiple bad decisions based on this bad assumption. Similarly, when digital first hit the marketplace, it was announced that a plethora of specs proved that this was perfect reproduction. It took a long time for such things as jitter to be appreciated.

In my current system, I place a high priority on low time distortion. My belief is that the brain is extremely sensitive to time distortions in an audio reproduction system. This sensitivity leads to what would normally be considered to be very tiny time errors to cause a reproduction of live music to be very unreal.

So, there are many ways to define objective measurements. The key is to find which objective measurements are most relevant to how the brain generates our subjective experience.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Halcro amps being relaunched...I wonder if they'll run again w the best measuring amps tagline?
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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As one of my good friends in the audio industry says:

"if it measures well and sounds good, then it is good" : "if it measures badly and sounds bad then it is bad" : "if it measures badly and sounds good, then it could be improved" : "if it measures well but sounds bad then it is bad"
Or "If it measures badly and sounds good, you have used the wrong measurements" ;)
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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We listened to and experienced music then...

we listened to our components, we listened to our recordings, we listened to our room and we listened to the sound of our systems (its very easy to get trapped in these parts) then...

we are led back to listening and the experience of music. The end...

rinse wash repeat... rinse wash repeat... rinse wash repeat... etc etc
and some of us get lost along the way.
 
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the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
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and some of us get lost along the way.
I think it’s easy to get lost.

Music is the light at the end of the tunnel and I believe the more we look towards that light the better.

When things aren’t right we need to atomise and problem solve and so analyse gear and the sound... but then essential moving towards rightness is the best goal and this (for me) leads always back to the music. The more I am loving the music the better my system is performing.
 
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Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Preference or fidelity to the source?
Of course those who admit the colorations of speakers and rooms still maintain their standard of fidelity to the source. All electronics sound the same. That is only halfway through the chain. The question is does the system sound the same?
One company is trying to claim with elaborate testing they can predict how their speakers will sound in an unknown room. But guest what when the run preference test these preferences match up to measurements. it would seem these preference tests are unnecessary. Here's a suggestion. How about making real music in real space your standard? Here is the ultimate preference test. Put it on the shelf and see who buys it.
That's how the ay subjectivists do it.
 

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