Dac with built in vol or Linestage with built in dac?

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
I don't think I've heard a DAC in my system that DIDN'T benefit from a pre-amp.

Same here. Wadia, EMMLabs, Accuphase. The volume controls came in handy when listening to background music because my pre didn't have a remote but that's it.

I would get a really good integrated and a separate Player/DAC with a digital input if I needed to save on space.
 

AudioExplorations

New Member
Apr 5, 2012
653
5
0
To answer the original question, given a single source, the answer is a no-brainer, although highly controversial because in my opinion it is difficult to get right in which case people are finding benefit from adding a preamp to the chain.

The preamp is a non essential component, you need a DAC with an analogue section that is as robust as what you get in a high end preamp. Low impedance, sufficient voltage and current delivery so that it can properly drive the power amp input stage and interconnects.

The analogue volume control is a non essential component, IF the voltage of the DAC's output stage can be set so that it matches the amplifier gain and sensitivity of the loudspeakers so that at full volume the sound is as loud as you are ever going to need. In this case you can make use of digital volume control which is possible inside the DAC chip itself without detrimental affects as you are using small amounts of attenuation to tweak the listening level.

From a poll we did recently we know that 64% of the people here (who actually compared with and without preamps) believe a preamp is essential sonically, however it is highly probable that the DAC's that were used in the formation of these opinions were not up to the task as described earlier.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
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Dallas, Texas
To answer the original question, given a single source, the answer is a no-brainer, although highly controversial because in my opinion it is difficult to get right in which case people are finding benefit from adding a preamp to the chain.

The preamp is a non essential component, you need a DAC with an analogue section that is as robust as what you get in a high end preamp. Low impedance, sufficient voltage and current delivery so that it can properly drive the power amp input stage and interconnects.

The analogue volume control is a non essential component, IF the voltage of the DAC's output stage can be set so that it matches the amplifier gain and sensitivity of the loudspeakers so that at full volume the sound is as loud as you are ever going to need. In this case you can make use of digital volume control which is possible inside the DAC chip itself without detrimental affects as you are using small amounts of attenuation to tweak the listening level.

From a poll we did recently we know that 64% of the people here (who actually compared with and without preamps) believe a preamp is essential sonically, however it is highly probable that the DAC's that were used in the formation of these opinions were not up to the task as described earlier.
I agree with everything, except that I don't think all digital volume control implementations on DAC chips are that great. There are some volume controls that dither only 24 bits, which is insufficient IMO. That is, the digital volume will chop more and more bits off to achieve greater and greater attenuation. There is a nice video lecture that lasts only about 15 minutes here done by one of the ESS Sabre engineers, Martin Mallison, that explains how this can be correctly done without losing bits and still retaining an excellent noise floor. I also like his sense of humor.
 

egidius

Member Sponsor
Feb 13, 2011
430
5
923
Switzerland
Silver Rock TVC..

Yes, not all digital volume control implementations are created equal!

Maybe it's time to mention my solution in my studio: Wadia S7i into Audio Consulting Silver Rock TVC into MIPA by the same company, or sometimes Berning ZH230.
The TVC allows me to settle on 100% in the Wadia, to turn it down by remote (somebody mentioned this advantage as well..) when needed. Obviously every CD needs a slightly different basic volume. And I wont boast about the Silver Rock, there are enough people who'd done so. And to forecome questions: Wadia into SR is a long IC, as Wadia has no such problems, it seems to me.. whereas SR into MIPA is a very short IC.

NOT BAD! (even if I say so myself)
E
 

opus111

Banned
Feb 10, 2012
1,286
3
0
Hangzhou, China
The analogue volume control is a non essential component, IF the voltage of the DAC's output stage can be set so that it matches the amplifier gain and sensitivity of the loudspeakers so that at full volume the sound is as loud as you are ever going to need. In this case you can make use of digital volume control which is possible inside the DAC chip itself without detrimental affects as you are using small amounts of attenuation to tweak the listening level.

Plenty of DAC chips contain no volume control stage - thinking of multibit DACs (my own favourites) in particular here. Its rather a waste of precious, hard-won DAC dynamic range to eat it up through use of a digital volume control. One compromise that works well in some cases is to adjust the DAC chip's reference voltage - this requires no digital processing and doesn't eat dynamic range as fast.
 

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