David Karmeli’s Bionor/Lamm/AS-2000 Audio System

Kingrex

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Thanks Ron. Great write up. A comment and question.

Comment. I don't see how people purchase a reference cartridge and don't have Wally Tools analyze it. JR rejects many more high end cartridges for out of specification tolerance than people may want to admit. And just knowing exatly how your cartridge zenith, azimuth and SRA are is such a leap forward in ones ability to set it up correct


Question. Could you listen casually to a large horn system every day.

I have heard Howards large horns a few times. I noted in the past they threw a recreation of live evens such as Simon and Garfunkel live in Central Park in such a way I was convinced I was sitting on a stage next to them. It was amazing. But it was also too much to imagine every day.

You have had the pleasure of sitting in front of large horns that were set up by a premier distributor who has put his life towards tuning this equipment. Done right, which I know Howards were not, could you handle that much every day. It's your one system in your house. Can you take it. Or would you want to reign it in and put your Martin Logans back in?
Rex
 
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PeterA

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Thanks Ron. Great write up. A comment and question.

Comment. I don't see how people purchase a reference cartridge and don't have Wally Tools analyze it. JR rejects many more high end cartridges for out of specification tolerance than people may want to admit. And just knowing exatly how your cartridge zenith, azimuth and SRA are is such a leap forward in ones ability to set it up correct


Question. Could you listen casually to a large horn system every day.

I have heard Howards large horns a few times. I noted in the past they threw a recreation of live evens such as Simon and Garfunkel live in Central Park in such a way I was convinced I was sitting on a stage next to them. It was amazing. But it was also too much to imagine every day.

You have had the pleasure of sitting in front of large horns that were set up by a premier distributor who has put his life towards tuning this equipment. Done right, which I know Howards were not, could you handle that much every day. It's your one system in your house. Can you take it. Or would you want to reign it in and put your Martin Logans back in?
Rex

Rex, i’m not Ron, but I did visit David for seven days straight two years ago and listened to his big horn system every day for hours and late into the night. Zero fatigue. I don’t know what you mean by “too much“. I also don’t know what you mean by big horns. I have a fairly large corner horns and I listen to my system for hours every day. Same thing, there’s no fatigue and nothing I would characterize as “too much“. Perhaps it would be different if I were listening to digital on such revealing systems or with different electronics and cabling. Horn speakers of this quality do not have issues with fatigue in my experience.
 

Ron Resnick

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Very interesting report, Ron. Would love to hear the Bionors someday. What was the amplification?

Lamm ML3s on the Bionors
Lamm ML2s on the JBL sub-woofers
 
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Ron Resnick

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Question. Could you listen casually to a large horn system every day.

could you handle that much every day. It's your one system in your house. Can you take it. Or would you want to reign it in and put your Martin Logans back in?

Rex

Answer: A big yes! If I teleported David's entire system to my listening room that would be great. What is there to "take"?

I do not listen casually (on the big stereo). I never listened casually to the Martin-Logan/VTL system in the current (albeit revised) listening room.

For casual listening I used to have an Arcam integrated amplifier driving Dynaudio Contour bookshelf speakers playing XMRadio in the living room and outside on the deck and in the main bedroom (three separate little systems). For casual listening today I use the overhead in each room streaming Qobuz. (Thanks to auditioning pretty carefully ceiling speakers, the overhead speakers (Revel downstairs and PSB LCR upstairs) sound surprisingly good.)

So, on the big stereo I do not listen casually, and I do not listen every day. But anytime I do want to listen non-casually I want to listen on a big system.

PS: This is why I cannot sit in front of a small stereo or a boombox or a table radio or sit in the car and listen non-casually. This is also why I will never understand listening to headphones non-casually. I listen to a big stereo for the experience (i.e, a reasonable facsimile reproduction of an actual musical event). I do not perceive any "experience" with small stereos or car stereos or headphones.
 
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Ron Resnick

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It was amazing. But it was also too much to imagine every day.

Honestly, I think I may not be understanding your line of thinking here. "Amazing" sounds amazing to me.

Why would "amazing" be "too much" to listen to?
 
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Ron Resnick

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The AS-2000 is stunning sonically and visually.
 
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chet atkins

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About 15-20 years ago i watched all the ebay auctions on the klangfilm electronics and if i can remeber there were a pair of bionor speakers that went for around 45,000.I wonder if these were the ones Dave bought
 

tima

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I have heard Howards large horns a few times. I noted in the past they threw a recreation of live evens such as Simon and Garfunkel live in Central Park in such a way I was convinced I was sitting on a stage next to them. It was amazing. But it was also too much to imagine every day.

I did visit David for seven days straight two years ago and listened to his big horn system every day for hours and late into the night. Zero fatigue. I don’t know what you mean by “too much“.

Thinking out loud...

I can imagine that Rex is wondering what it would be like to have a near-live music listening experience every day, when that experience is 'amazing'. If amazement includes a compelling experience with high emotional involvement over several hours, I can imagine that taking something out of you. I've come out of live concerts in various states of being emotionally drained. That's not a bad feeling at all, but I wonder if I'd want to feel like that for hours every day.

I don't think he is saying that such a system is fatiguing to hear. I don't think he was criticizing.

Of course, for some, such a daily experience could be revitalizing, increasing your joy in being alive. It may depend on how much time you spend in focused listening. Is it possible to spend "too much" time in high quality listening? That's not a question about high quality sound.
 

ddk

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About 15-20 years ago i watched all the ebay auctions on the klangfilm electronics and if i can remeber there were a pair of bionor speakers that went for around 45,000.I wonder if these were the ones Dave bought
I bought mine from a vintage dealer in Hiroshima, this was part of his personal collection, over the years I bought quite a few pairs of speakers from him. His personal collection basically meant the best he could find so it made transactions easy. I wouldn't buy anything like this off ebay.

david
 

Gregm

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I listen to a big stereo for the experience (i.e, a reasonable facsimile reproduction of an actual musical event). I do not perceive any "experience" with small stereos or car stereos or headphones.
I fully identify with that anecdotal point!
Thank you for the right up, Ron.
 

Ron Resnick

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Two additional thoughts:

1) I am certain of my unparalleled suspension of disbelief of the Bionors on jazz music. But I have felt not quite as convinced on big symphony orchestra classical music. I just realized that that uncertainty is simply the size of the room. As large as David’s listening room is big symphony orchestra classical music would benefit from an even wider and taller room. In a larger room I am very confident that I would achieve with big symphony orchestra classical music the same unparalleled suspension of disbelief I feel on jazz music.

2) I have never been particularly understanding of the desire to have two different audio systems. I have always had the philosophy of maximizing the sum of sonic qualities with one system.

I think the Bionors are so dramatically convincing on jazz music certainly, and classical music as well (especially in an even larger room) I now can totally see the desire for two systems: Bionors (driven by SET amps) for jazz and classical and classic rock; planars (driven by high-power tubes) for vocals and pop.

Despite the hope of horn aficionados to witness from me a complete conversion to horns (Kedar I’m talking to you) there is some additional level of satisfaction (some combination of transparency and open-ness) I still hear from vocals on planars. I understand, appreciate and accept that horn aficionados don’t hear what I’m talking about.
 
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Kingrex

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I have been trying to think how to say this. I don't want to say anything in a negative way. I don't want to insult Dave. My experiences to date say horns do do something quite amazing. I too from the "second" start of my audiophile life (after 40) find I gravitate away from box speakers and black backgrounds to nimble and lithe with air and snap. I'm not going to say Natural as its a War Word. But I perceive my open baffle as more like what I hear from non amplified instruments than other types of speakers. I have experienced horns taking that same attribute to another level. But I have reservations about horns.

The attached images are Howards Horns. These threw something special. But at the same time, it was too much. Most likely due to them not being well tuned. Maybe a cable. Maybe a crossover component. Maybe an amp. Howard was always looking to tweak them a little. He knew it too. He wanted to try other drivers like Great Planes. He had nebulous cables from the crossover to driver, as well as from the amp to crossover. His phono pre had a ground issue. It was all a lot to take in. Even so, it was one of the most memorable systems I have heard. So my point about every day is based upon memorable experiences that stayed with me, but at the same time left me with caution. That, and having also listened to horns in 4 or more other settings and not being impressed much. Much smaller versions. Placed in nice rooms. But they don't do what Howards do. And the smaller ones I have heard sound like classic horns. You would not mistake them with a blind fold on. They don't sound any closer to a live event than any other speaker. They just sound different.

I have never heard David's speakers. Its my assumption that they are very well tuned. As such, I wondered if Ron and others experienced something special. Something that verges magical. But in the back of your mind, does it leaves you wondering if it could be your every day speaker. Can you listen to a well tuned horn system of massive scale every day and not find it, shall I say, over stimulating. Not fatigue. Just, so much to take in and absorb it might overwhelm someone. I only have one system. There are plenty of times I am in front of it with my head in something else. Just listening and doing other things. I don't know I want a full blown out of body experience every time I turn it on.

I don't feel I ever experience over stimulation from "heroically inert" box speakers. I have never experienced such a you are there live experience with box speakers either as I did at Howards. I have heard many box speakers that are much more linear and balanced. Much more tonally correct. Very detailed and plenty of life. But non have transported me to a place where I heard Bob Dylan recite a poem. Not sing a song. He recited the poem to music.

I have heard stunning in ways with boxed speakers. I still remember Mile L Led Z tape. Holly cow. I ran home and turned my Led Z record on, then turned my stereo off and didn't play it for a week.

I listened to Howard 4 or so times and every time was very impressed, but I always wondered if I had them, would I be able to bring control to them where I could listen every day. Where I could sit and read with the music on. They were like wild horses. I was unsure if they could be broken. I assumed they could if someone knew what they were doing and had time and resources to put to them. That is why I was interested in taking them off his hands if I bought land with acreage. You need a place to store such massive speakers. And then you need a very large room to land them in. They are sold now as Howard moved and could not take them. Too bad in a way. The woodwork on these was absolutely gorgeous. Very high grade plywood. The woodworker who made them was a master craftsman. And I gather he had a very modern computer controlled CNC shop that could take the original plans and recreate the speaker down to the fine details.

All of this is why when David posts to me I should look in another direction, I become very cautious about considering horns. They appear to be a commitment that you can't take lightly. I have heard enough horns I don't like at all. I have heard some I feel are good overall and.great in some ways, but need work. I don't know they won't end up a massive time and financial investment to get them right. As much as any high $$$ boxed speaker today. I am concerned you would need the support of someone like David to fly out a few times and help polish the performance. And he would not be using inexpensive parts.

Now, before anyone comes back and says all speakers take work to get right, yes I agree. This is a video of Erik's house. He wrote about the work I did at his place. His Magico/Boulder setup was outstanding. It threw the largest, complete soundstage I have ever heard from a box speaker. And he and Jay clearly note how difficult it is to get a hyper resolving speaker in a room correct. This was one of the best rooms and systems I have heard for a few reasons. But I was still aware I was listening to box speakers.


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bonzo75

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I have heard stunning in ways with boxed speakers. I still remember Mile L Led Z tape. Holly cow. I ran home and turned my Led Z record on, then turned my stereo off and didn't play it for a week.
Mike's LZ is amazing. I think I subconsciously visited him again just to hear LZ 1 again, I have not heard You shook me all night long and Dazed and Confused even close like it plays on his. That said, I like the Altec 817, videos posted, equally for rock. On 10 watts. You will need to listen to many horns, many will be bad, they will be quite different from each other, and very few will be good.
 
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chet atkins

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Mike's LZ is amazing. I think I subconsciously visited him again just to hear LZ 1 again, I have not heard You shook me all night long and Dazed and Confused even close like it plays on his. That said, I like the Altec 817, videos posted, equally for rock. On 10 watts. You will need to listen to many horns, many will be bad, they will be quite different from each other, and very few will be good.
Maybe Mike could post a video of LZ
 

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morricab

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Two additional thoughts:

1) I am certain of my unparalleled suspension of disbelief of the Bionors on jazz music. But I have felt not quite as convinced on big symphony orchestra classical music. I just realized that that uncertainty is simply the size of the room. As large as David’s listening room is big symphony orchestra classical music would benefit from an even wider and taller room. In a larger room I am very confident that I would achieve with big symphony orchestra classical music the same unparalleled suspension of disbelief I feel on jazz music.

2) I have never been particularly understanding of the desire to have two different audio systems. I have always had the philosophy of maximizing the sum of sonic qualities with one system.

I think the Bionors are so dramatically convincing on jazz music certainly, and classical music as well (especially in an even larger room) I now can totally see the desire for two systems: Bionors (driven by SET amps) for jazz and classical and classic rock; planars (driven by high-power tubes) for vocals and pop.

Despite the hope of horn aficionados to witness from me a complete conversion to horns (Kedar I’m talking to you) there is some additional level of satisfaction (some combination of transparency and open-ness) I still hear from vocals on planars. I understand, appreciate and accept that horn aficionados don’t hear what I’m talking about.
Is that because you heard some coloration on the vocals that impacted your suspension of disbelief with the Bionors? Just wondering if you can elaborate why you think planars are still tops for vocals and pop music.

I am sympathetic to your situation having owned many planar speakers and I agree they do vocals (and Jazz for that matter) extremely well and most horns are significantly more colored tonally that can distract from suspension of disbelief.
 

bonzo75

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Despite the hope of horn aficionados to witness from me a complete conversion to horns (Kedar I’m talking to you) there is some additional level of satisfaction (some combination of transparency and open-ness) I still hear from vocals on planars. I understand, appreciate and accept that horn aficionados don’t hear what I’m talking about.

people convert to horns first for classical and jazz. Rock it works slam dunk only with certain dual FLH, though some people could prefer with cone based bass under a midrange horn, I don’t. For vocals and chamber, as I said, electrostats are sufficient and I think you should never have given up your MLs for that taste. I still regret selling mine. So as such Ian, micro, Marty will convert before you

The first relatively big horn that astounded me was Anima, I heard jazz on it, it was ultra live like nothing I had heard before. My Lampi distro was a DIY guy before entering the business, and he had made for himself a small TAD based horn that he drove with 2 watts. That did midrange and vocals better than MLs. I realized why only much later, but these two are why I started seeking out horns to listen to. And the western electric I heard first time in 2014 that shamed everything in Munich
 
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cjfrbw

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Nice report, very consistent with some of our other esteemed visitors and DDK's system is a shrine to visit for sure. I would luv to hear those, especially with Lamm ML3 in an optimized context.

I would never argue away from horns. I think for the micro and the macro, it's the audiophile choice, especially for classical. If you want the full cognitive emotional impact of that plaintive oboe, French horn, English horn, or violin in the corner or middle of the stage, and dynamic jump up to massed strings, than horns are the go to.

However, virtually all music is compressed, so I don't really think one wants to listen to music with real 120 db peaks, otherwise the median levels are going to be excessive. Most artificially played music in homes is going to have a dynamic range peaking at 105 to 110 db due to recording limitations.

Raw resolution tends to be artificial compared to
"real" sound, but it is a proxy for dynamics at lower listening levels.

In perhaps a pathetic defense of dipole planars, they do have a smooth room filling and room occupying sound that is cool in their own right, and they perform well up to the 105 db dynamic peaks. I think they could also be more hearing sparing over the long run, if one were to consider one's audio perception apparatus as a limited and exhaustible commodity over time.

I see myself with horns playing them infrequently at their dynamic limits, which means that I might with routine listening seldom play them in the volume range where they sound best. However, a lot of audiophiles do play consistently louder than me from my various visits, even though I am accused by spouse as being a loud listener.
 
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