Dedicated Manufacturer Sub-Forums Sponsored by Manufacturers

[Steve Williams]

I have no problem with any manufacturer setting up its own forum and having customers as well as interested members of the public posting comments and questions, and of course the manufacturer would be free to delete negative posts or do whatever it wants. However, for this to occur under the umbrella of a supposedly open forum like WBF is an entirely different matter.

I understand the need or desire to generate revenue to support a website, but the manufacturer sub-forums at WBF are a real slippery slope.

The easy answer is to separate the manufacturer sub-forums so they are not part of the overall forum. In particular posts on a manufacturer sub-forum should not appear on the Latest Activity list. Just speaking for myself, if there’s no way for me to avoid reading the first line or two of a new post by Mr. Weiss, then I will stop looking at the Latest Activity which essentially means I stop looking at WBF. Not the end of the world, but I suspect there are others who will also vote with their feet by no longer visiting WBF.

Its called the Ignore button . You can easily ignore any member and his posts should not show up in your feed And frankly I think you're being a little difficult. I would bet that you ignore many things as you scan latest activity so if you choose not to use the ignore button, then learn to ignore. We appreciate the things you state but as posted above the forum is separated out of the Manufacturers forum. There is no way for us to create a second latest activity etc. Give the Ignore button a try

 

[rando]

It does seem preemptive to ask at this early point. Yet someone must.

At what depth can we expect to be confronted by high end manufacturers aiming to further develop this new category of sub-forum. Beyond a solitary entry of whom any comment is currently prone to a level of scrutiny which might lead to further administrative actions.

 

[Steve Williams]

Glad you asked...... It is presumptive to ask at this early point

 

[microstrip]

Very unfortunate. Different rules and lack of equality with posters on these forums. Controlled narratives. And navigating on the new post and latest activity feeds there is an expectation of fairness that will inevitably cause issues.

And these advertisers will get the identity of the forum without being held accountable in the same way as other members.

We move on.

I guess we have to see it in action and how plain the disclosures are.

Also feel it as very unfortunate turn in WBF. I was always happy to accept WBF moderator decisions, even when I disagreed with them. But what is being suggested is not moderation, it is simply censorship by someone directly involved in a product.

I really appreciated WBF for its content, but also because it was an environment that created discussion and some knowledge and enjoyment, only possible in a forum where all members had equal rights and different personalities. And sorry, building a wall to screen part of the forum does not seem acceptable for me. The fact that after a few posts we are reading about the ignore button says most of it. Just my opinion, YMMV.

 

[Tango]

Since the sponsored forum will have a privilege of censoring contents at their own discretion and the sponsored thread will be included in the Latest Activity, can the owners of this forum be fair enough to extend the sponsor another privilege of having all contents in their forum appear in green or other color? to remind readers that these contents are moderated under manufacturer privilege. Color will just make it easier for readers to realize what is what or at least raise question why they are in different color. A continuous disclosure.

 

[PeterA]

Since the sponsored forum will have a privilege of censoring contents at their own discretion and the sponsored thread will be included in the Latest Activity, can the owners of this forum be fair enough to extend the sponsor another privilege of having all contents in their forum appear in green or other color? to remind readers that these contents are moderated under manufacturer privilege. Color will just make it easier for readers to realize what is what or at least raise question why they are in different color. A continuous disclosure.

I love this idea. Perhaps even change the color of the banners or background so as to very clearly distinguish between the two different forums.

 

[Argonaut]

In the spirit of fair and open disclosure may we, the membership, be made aware exactly which manufacturers / dealers have lobbied the owners of WBF for this significant departure from the free and open forum which was one of the cornerstones of what made WBF such an attractive and vibrant place to openly discuss all aspects of the industry including the good the bad and the ugly.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for all of the comments. Instead of imagining issues in theory which may not actually arise, let’s see how it goes in practice.

 

[Tam Lin]

Its called the Ignore button . You can easily ignore any member and his posts should not show up in your feed And frankly I think you're being a little difficult. I would bet that you ignore many things as you scan latest activity so if you choose not to use the ignore button, then learn to ignore. We appreciate the things you state but as posted above the forum is separated out of the Manufacturers forum. There is no way for us to create a second latest activity etc. Give the Ignore button a try

The ignore button works only if you know the user you want to ignore. Every new member that joins a sponsored forum that I don't want to see will have to be discovered and individually ignored. Also ignore does not always give expected results. If the post of an ignored member is quoted, the quoted text appears. There are a couple other similar situations. What's really needed is the ability to totally ignore any and everything that originates in a selected sponsored forum.

What happens when a business that has a manufacture's forum wants to make it sponsored because it will allow greater control amd may even cost less than the current rate of donations? What happens when a post on a sponsored forum violates the WBF TOS but is OKed by the forum's sponsor?

 

[Folsom]

I stopped reading the replies. I’m not dignifying the lunacy about this being a problem. Nothing but a bunch of crack smoking creating problems that don’t exists.

AudioCircle has run over a decade with manufacturer’s subforums that they pay for and moderate. It’s rare that very much moderation is even needed. Most manufacturers are very friendly towards discussion.

 

[beaur]

Paraphrasing 1968 - Allow me to Introduce Myself.

My name is Beau, and I have taken on the duty of moderator (Tied to the Whipping Post if I may mix metaphors) for the aforementioned forum.

I can't change what is happened in the past only acknowledge it and tell you that I am going to do my best not to let it happen again. I told Steve that I plan to moderate with a velvet fist. That means that I want a debate, I want discussion but when it gets personal, I am going to give you a chance to steady the ship and get back to a rational discussion.

I've mostly lurked online with the occasional outburst but that's going to have to change as I plan on engaging with anyone interested in the OMA/Fleetwood brand and hope that those discussions promote not only our brand but the industry as a whole. This sandbox is not big enough to take your truck and find an unoccupied corner. We need to work at making a bigger sandbox.


Beau

 

[Salectric]

And these advertisers will get the identity of the forum without being held accountable in the same way as other members.

Mike summarized the problem quite well.

 

[beaur]

Very unfortunate. Different rules and lack of equality with posters on these forums. Controlled narratives. And navigating on the new post and latest activity feeds there is an expectation of fairness that will inevitably cause issues.

And these advertisers will get the identity of the forum without being held accountable in the same way as other members.

We move on.

I guess we have to see it in action and how plain the disclosures are.

Mike,

This very discussion is the way we will be held accountable. See my above post for why I am butting in here, but in my view, no one who makes high-end audio needs to be at war with potential customers. I regret what has happened, and I am here to hopefully make sure the train returns to the track.

I don't plan on deleting anything critical unless it gets personal, and even then, I am hoping to be able to let the poster rethink/rephrase their comments to avoid personal attacks.

I feel that online debate/discussion can get messy because the nuance of face-to-face is lost. Being fairly sarcastic myself, some of my best work gets overlooked because it doesn't translate to a forum post, but I will hopefully give the benefit of the doubt to posters and also expect to be held to that same standard. I don't plan on using this newfound power to make the forum a one-way discussion. I am hoping we can learn from this and deliver a better experience for those that choose to participate.

Beau

 

[Steve Williams]

I stopped reading the replies. I’m not dignifying the lunacy about this being a problem. Nothing but a bunch of crack smoking creating problems that don’t exists.

AudioCircle has run over a decade with manufacturer’s subforums that they pay for and moderate. It’s rare that very much moderation is even needed. Most manufacturers are very friendly towards discussion.

Paraphrasing 1968 - Allow me to Introduce Myself.

My name is Beau, and I have taken on the duty of moderator (Tied to the Whipping Post if I may mix metaphors) for the aforementioned forum.

I can't change what is happened in the past only acknowledge it and tell you that I am going to do my best not to let it happen again. I told Steve that I plan to moderate with a velvet fist. That means that I want a debate, I want discussion but when it gets personal, I am going to give you a chance to steady the ship and get back to a rational discussion.

I've mostly lurked online with the occasional outburst but that's going to have to change as I plan on engaging with anyone interested in the OMA/Fleetwood brand and hope that those discussions promote not only our brand but the industry as a whole. This sandbox is not big enough to take your truck and find an unoccupied corner. We need to work at making a bigger sandbox.


Beau

As I stated yesterday and reinforced by Folsom this practice is common in many forums and just doesn't pose a problem

Also FWIW beaur has been a member of WBF since 2011 and has been an employee at OMA/Fleetwood during all of that time. Beau is well known here to many members and is as fair and to the point as anyone I have met here. Beau is quite familiar with the TOS at WBF and not only will abide by them but he has promised me that if ANY of his usergroup members cross the line they will be immediately moderated and that includes his boss.

It is also my understanding that beau is taking the lead on this and he has had talks with Jonathan whom as I understand now feels he was out of line in his comments to Bill and has also asked beau to remove the inflammatory posts


So here we are with a user group filled with energetic people who want nothing more than a place to discuss their systems and common Fleetwood gear. I have yet to read anything but positive comments from the members who have no pugilistic desires. Simply put I feel that with beaur's moderation and with his promise that even the owner will be moderated if he gets out of line, should really serve to put a lid on this rather than reading all of the requests by members. As Ron stated, this is what has been decided.

So let's have some faith in this and give it a chance. Further all Fleetwood user group members are also members of WBF and may choose to post in the forum. If such is the case, then will be subject to the TOS of WBF exactly the same if WBF members post in the Fleetwood user group. Beau has given his word which I respect is allow for engagement on the Fleetwood user group in a cordial fashion.

It is my hope that with everything laid out here that many are worrying about things which are only suppositions. As beau also said....This sandbox is not big enough to take your truck and find an unoccupied corner. We need to work at making a bigger sandbox.

 

[beaur]

Only one small correction to Steve's post, just in case anyone from the conflict board for the City of New York is an audiophile. OMA does not officially employ me in any capacity. I am helping Jonathan, who has been a friend since the early '00s because I may want to get involved in the business side of audio (I know, bad idea !! ) after my retirement in a few years. Jonathan and I are still easing into this, and who knows if my work here is appreciated, I can start a bidding war for my services when I am ready to transition.

Otherwise, Steve's post is an accurate reflection of how I plan to operate and where I would like to move in the future.

Beau

 

[Argonaut]

And so it begins … lets merely erase history … where have we seen this insidious practice before ! I haven’t even been afforded the common courtesy of explaining which of my posts have been deemed verboten to the new regime?

 

[ddk]

And so it begins … lets merely erase history … where have we seen this insidious practice before ! I haven’t even been afforded the common courtesy of explaining which of my posts have been deemed verboten to the new regime?

Simple answer mr. moon, you have a habit of butting in and trolling threads! We never had any exchanges on this forum but you thought you had the right to jump in and troll me in exchanges with others. I ignored you because you don't matter. You did the same thing in the Fleetwood forum and they flung you out like a pesky fly. Now you're crying here so I'm answering your question, you're a Troll!

david

 

[beaur]

And so it begins … lets merely erase history … where have we seen this insidious practice before ! I haven’t even been afforded the common courtesy of explaining which of my posts have been deemed verboten to the new regime?

Let's see the explanation for the deletion of your post is right there above my moniker.

"Going to try and restart this conversation without getting personal"

Can't be any clearer in my mind. Don't think there's any argument on whether or not your post was personal is there?

Yes mistakes were made on "our" side and I've expressed my regret previously and will do so once more now, but moving forward I want to raise the level of the conversation to speak about the equipment, music and experiences of people interested in Fleetwood and OMA.

Beau

 

[Argonaut]

Can't be any clearer in my mind. Don't think there's any argument on whether or not your post was personal is there?

I dont know … please refresh my memory please

 

[beaur]

I dont know … please refresh my memory please

The post I deleted referred to people deserving each other. It was a one-line post that had nothing to do with the topic. As I have stated earlier, I am willing to entertain reframing the posts I delete in a form that will improve the discussion in a positive manner.

Beau