Digitally Enhanced Vinyl Poll

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Can digital enhance vinyl? I'll include as many choices given my limited knowledge of vinyl.

Interesting poll for you of all people to start. How could you possibly know the answer to your poll question? You have no turntable, arm, or cartridge in your system right?
 

CGabriel

Industry Expert
Oct 31, 2013
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Can digital enhance vinyl? I'll include as many choices given my limited knowledge of vinyl.


I don't see any choices yet. Instead of the word "enhance", what about a word or phrase that is more specific. For instance if the word were "change" there would be no poll to take. What if the poll said, "Can digital enhance vinyl by simply converting it to digital without any processing other than re-equalization?" Is the source an actual record played through a turntable and then run through a ADC or?

And then there is the converse which is, "Can a vinyl record improve upon the sound quality of source material that was digitally mastered?"
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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I've tried every which way to Sunday with Cedar, Izotooe and Algirithmix. The compromises are just too much!!
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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I was convinced that digital RIAA equalization was the way to go. I even bought a ADC with built-in curves. BOY was I wrong!! It may be the "most accurate RIAA equalization possible" but it didn't sound like music at all.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
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I screwed up my poll. Sorry about that.

I plan on doing this soon. I admit that I know nothing about vinyl. But I think I can setup a pretty interesting digitized vinyl rig using Jriver and my Lynx hilo with a simple 2CH MIC pre. Anyone ever done this before? I can do an RIAA curve in audiolense and convolve it with my normal DSP filters for my 4CH setup. Scotty said he could find a turntable for me to do it. I hope to set it all up next week. I plan to start a new thread demonstrating how I did it. I know it can be done. Whether it sounds better, remains to be seen. Any advice is appreciated.

Michael.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
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I don't see any choices yet. Instead of the word "enhance", what about a word or phrase that is more specific. For instance if the word were "change" there would be no poll to take. What if the poll said, "Can digital enhance vinyl by simply converting it to digital without any processing other than re-equalization?" Is the source an actual record played through a turntable and then run through a ADC or?

And then there is the converse which is, "Can a vinyl record improve upon the sound quality of source material that was digitally mastered?"

There are a couple of answers here. 1) Vinyl, properly ripped to digital, will be neither enhanced or diminished, it will simply be copied. It will copy all of vinyl's sonic properties and the sonic properties of the table it's played upon. With the right software, pops and clicks can be removed, and the colorations, if not the limitations of vinyl, can be at least partially addressed. Addressing colorations is essentially re-mastering, however; not for the neophyte. "Can vinyl improve on the sound quality of source material that was digitally mastered?" If you had the ability to cut digital masters to vinyl, it would certainly change it, as would playing it back on a turntable. Whether or not it would be an improvement would be a judgement call here, a no, in objective reality.

Mark - "How could you possibly know the answer to your poll question? You have no turntable, arm, or cartridge in your system right?"

I can only assume you didn't understand the issue/question.

Tim
 

CGabriel

Industry Expert
Oct 31, 2013
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WA, USA
www.shunyata.com
There are a couple of answers here. 1) Vinyl, properly ripped to digital, will be neither enhanced or diminished, it will simply be copied. It will copy all of vinyl's sonic properties and the sonic properties of the table it's played upon. With the right software, pops and clicks can be removed, and the colorations, if not the limitations of vinyl, can be at least partially addressed. Addressing colorations is essentially re-mastering, however; not for the neophyte. "Can vinyl improve on the sound quality of source material that was digitally mastered?" If you had the ability to cut digital masters to vinyl, it would certainly change it, as would playing it back on a turntable. Whether or not it would be an improvement would be a judgement call here, a no, in objective reality.

Mark - "How could you possibly know the answer to your poll question? You have no turntable, arm, or cartridge in your system right?"

I can only assume you didn't understand the issue/question.

Tim

I understand your POV and many share it. However, most people with an opinion on either side have not actually done what you are talking about. IMO and it is no better than yours is that a digital rip from vinyl does diminish the sound quality regardless of what filters you choose to apply. And I do have vinyl rips that were properly done.

One opinion - one vote. But isn't it interesting given the results of the analog versus digital poll.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
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I understand your POV and many share it. However, most people with an opinion on either side have not actually done what you are talking about. IMO and it is no better than yours is that a digital rip from vinyl does diminish the sound quality regardless of what filters you choose to apply. And I do have vinyl rips that were properly done.

One opinion - one vote. But isn't it interesting given the results of the analog versus digital poll.

Does a straight transfer diminish? Well, there are those who believe it does, but I know of no evidence to support that. But the filters that remove the clicks and pops will, in the process, inevitably remove more than just the clicks and pops. The quality of the results is a function of the quality of the software and the skill of the operator.

Tim
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
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Okay. I understand that I haven't made myself very clear. I appreciate Bruce and Caelin's perspective. However, I want to use digital to enable all of the DSP I already do. I don't plan on ripping vinyl. I will setup a "live" vinyl rig which gets converted to digital so that I can apply digital crossovers and target curve in Audiolense as well as an "enhanced" RIAA curve.

I want to contemporaneously get all the benefits of vinyl and all the benefits of digital.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
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Maybe Marty will chime in since he does this with his Tact unit. I'm not sure what he uses for phono gain or whether the Tact has a digital RIAA curve. I know Audiolense has two different RIAA curves.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I've used DSP with vinyl. In my case Lyngdorf. In one show not a single person noticed. Under those conditions I'm not sure I would have noticed. One thing for sure, in the extremely weird small concrete space DSP beat the living hell out of bypass mode. Clearly a case where acoustics was more an issue than format. The vinyl we had still sounded better than the digital we brought.
 

c1ferrari

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 15, 2010
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I want to contemporaneously get all the benefits of vinyl and all the benefits of digital.

Michael, in the context of this thread...may one substitute 'analog' for 'vinyl'? :confused:
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Michael how will you deal with the added crosstalk with a format that has the crosstalk built in? Is it defeatable from the box?
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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RIAA can not be properly done in the digital domain.

Mike has a box that adds crosstalk. It's not for RIAA as far as I know. At least I'm sure he hasn't used it for that since he doesn't have a turntable.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
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I think Jack is talking about the Acourate convolver. It can add frequency dependent crosstalk which is designed to emulate vinyl crosstalk. It's really fun to use it but I wouldn't say it's the most valuable feauture of the DSP I do.

I won't be using Acourate. I'll be using audiolense so there won't be any DSP crosstalk. I just use DSP for digital crossovers and target curve. Of course, there's a couple of RIAA curves I can add as well.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Seattle, WA
I think Jack is talking about the Acourate convolver. It can add frequency dependent crosstalk which is designed to emulate vinyl crosstalk. It's really fun to use it but I wouldn't say it's the most valuable feauture of the DSP I do.

I won't be using Acourate. I'll be using audiolense so there won't be any DSP crosstalk. I just use DSP for digital crossovers and target curve. Of course, there's a couple of RIAA curves I can add as well.
Ah, that makes sense. Love to see how you do as I am a firm believer in the value of what you are doing.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
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RIAA can not be properly done in the digital domain.

I don't really follow. As far as I know, the RIAA curve is simply an EQ applied to the viny signal to compensate for the lack of linearity inherent in the format. It's a fairly gentle curve so I don't really understand why you think 64 bit floating point FIR filters could easily do the RIAA compensation.
 

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