Does anyone float their branch circuit ground to a non bonded ground rod

[Kingrex]

I am not asking this as a discussion on danger and code violations. I am curious how many people are still doing this. What I mean is only connecting the hot and neutral from the utility supply branch circuit to your equipment rack receptacle. Not the ground. The only ground you have is a ground you run out into your yard to a ground rod.

Yes, Yes, Yes this is not code or safe. But I believe people are still doing it.

You can either respond here or send me a personal response if you don't want speedskater and other ripping on you.

Thanks

 

[Kingrex]

I'm kind of glad no one replied.

 

[Cyclotronguy]

I know old thread. NO not doing that, nor would I.

But living in an arid climate with a structure on a rocky hill has it's challenges. The first being that you're not going to drive a ground rod. Code allows for a UFER mat; 20 feet of 1/2" rebar in the foundation pour. In wet weather it makes for an acceptable safety ground. In dry weather, not so much.

My UFER ground now goes to a heavy copper bus bar the service entrance ground to the bus bar quite conventionally. I just had to pour 12 yards of concrete for a retainer wall, there is 400 feet of 5/8" rebar in that pour all of it bonded back to that copper bus with a short run of #2 copper.

Does the AV system perform better for it, yes I think so.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Does that system get you to a low resistance to ground similar to the low resistance to ground a "chemical ground" can achieve?

 

[jn229]

I have a friend and a brother in law who do this. Note: both have dedicated lines to their kits.

 

[stehno]

I am not asking this as a discussion on danger and code violations. I am curious how many people are still doing this. What I mean is only connecting the hot and neutral from the utility supply branch circuit to your equipment rack receptacle. Not the ground. The only ground you have is a ground you run out into your yard to a ground rod.

Yes, Yes, Yes this is not code or safe. But I believe people are still doing it.

You can either respond here or send me a personal response if you don't want speedskater and other ripping on you.

Thanks

I'm not afraid of anybody ripping on me. My wife's friend has this cousin whose neighbor swears by lifting the grounds and supposedly has done so for 20+ years. Or was it her uncle?

 

[Kingrex]

Does that system get you to a low resistance to ground similar to the low resistance to ground a "chemical ground" can achieve?

What do you mean chemical ground. Erico GEM?

 

[Kingrex]

I originally asked as I was considering producing a isolation GFI device that would let you float your ground, yet provide safety. If stray current went to the ground a contact would bolt the ground rod back to the main panel and clear the fault. Since I see no response, I dropped the project.

 

[Kingrex]

I know old thread. NO not doing that, nor would I.

But living in an arid climate with a structure on a rocky hill has it's challenges. The first being that you're not going to drive a ground rod. Code allows for a UFER mat; 20 feet of 1/2" rebar in the foundation pour. In wet weather it makes for an acceptable safety ground. In dry weather, not so much.

My UFER ground now goes to a heavy copper bus bar the service entrance ground to the bus bar quite conventionally. I just had to pour 12 yards of concrete for a retainer wall, there is 400 feet of 5/8" rebar in that pour all of it bonded back to that copper bus with a short run of #2 copper.

Does the AV system perform better for it, yes I think so.

Excellent job. A ufer is a superior ground

 

[Ron Resnick]

What do you mean chemical ground. Erico GEM?

It's where a ground rod is embedded in an underground bath of conductive goop of some sort.

 

[jn229]

Not to steel the thread; I run a ground wire from the turntable through a couple of walls to my water main to drain off static. It helps.

 

[wil]

It's where a ground rod is embedded in an underground bath of conductive goop of some sort.

I made a trench of Bentonite clay for my ground rod.

 

[Kingrex]

Not to steel the thread; I run a ground wire from the turntable through a couple of walls to my water main to drain off static. It helps.

As long as the water main is tied to the main panel that "may be" fine. Almost always the water main is the primary ground. Until 10 years ago when the mains changed from galvanized steel to PEX.
I say May Be, as you may have a potential ground loop now between your phono section to the water pipe and the rest of the system going to the main panel before going to the water pipe.

 

[Kingrex]

It's where a ground rod is embedded in an underground bath of conductive goop of some sort.

Yes thanks GEM is ground enhancement material. Basically clay or Bentonite. Its not so much a chemical contact as a dense putty that maintains a consistent moisture level for constant contact of the rod to earth. I am suspect to its value in sand or rock. If the sand dries out in the trench surounding the rod, the contact back to the panel and into earth is lost. It's just a blob around a rod in a sand box.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It sounds kind of Mickey Mouse but apparently it really works. After this was installed the measured resistance to ground was surprisingly low.

 

[Cyclotronguy]

Does that system get you to a low resistance to ground similar to the low resistance to ground a "chemical ground" can achieve?

Hi Ron

Chemical grounds are very effective if you can penetrate the earth and if you can keep the moisture content high enough to keep the electrolyte saturated; I would have a difficult time achieving either conditional. Water mains and branch feeders are plastic, so the days of grounding to your water mains are long gone in my area.

Hard to say if my UFER equals a chemical ground, my electrician can't get two driven rods in the ground for a 3 lead test, the house is sitting on a granite cap so I can only guess.

I'm simply working off the principal that my 400 feet of rebar and 12 yard retainer wall pour has orders of magnitude more earth contact (lower resistance) than what I get from the small contact patch under the 20 foot of 1/2 rebar in the foundation.

When the abutting patio pour is made, along with the raised planters they too will be UFER'd to rebar and 6" x 6" x 10ga netting

Simply emulating earthing / bonding (on a smaller scale) for mission critical telemetry at DoE. The whole concept of UFER grounding dates back to WWII, where communication instillation were put on arid soil and driven grounds were ineffective.

Kent

 

[Kingrex]

Hi
I'm simply working off the principal that my 400 feet of rebar and 12 yard retainer wall pour has orders of magnitude more earth contact (lower resistance) than what I get from the small contact patch under the 20 foot of 1/2 rebar in the foundation.

When the abutting patio pour is made, along with the raised planters they too will be UFER'd to rebar and 6" x 6" x 10ga
Kent

Your ufer is probanly excellent. I have measured mine and seen others measured in the field. They have been around 4 ohm To 6 ohm.

Be careful the slab bond and overlapping ground planes. Ground loops in your yard. Please report back results. Especially if you can perform a real ground potential test.

Do you have a well. Of course, plumbers have hated us electricians tying grounds to their plumbing. Nothing rots metal pipe faster than electric current running in it. So, do you want to geound to your steel well case going hundreds of feet in the earth. What an amazing ground that would be.

 

[Cyclotronguy]

Hi Kingrex

Yes quite familiar with potential ground loops, proximity of driven rods and ufers was rigidly spelled out by the DoE protocols and that I can test rather easily; but you bring up a very valid point, especially when water pipes are involved. Ground loop currents have the nasty habit of eroding water pipes rather efficiently where water lines are part of the earth ground network.

Having said that Audiophiles and the utility companies and for that matter the NEC have different goals. The safety agencies want all of us to have a ground resistance sufficient to take out a service panel breaker in the event of an electrical fault And the utility companies don't want us to have ampacity capability sufficient to damage their switchgear.

Audiophiles want their system ground to be a sink capable of safely shunting a lightening event to earth. I'm simply looking for a reasonably consistent and reliable compromise that is <5 ohms year round.

Kent

 

[microstrip]

It sounds kind of Mickey Mouse but apparently it really works. After this was installed the measured resistance to ground was surprisingly low.

You have a fully balanced system, built with equipment using proper grounding techniques. IMHO ground resistance variations, as long as you are in the safety zone, are almost meaningless.

 

[Kingrex]

You have a fully balanced system, built with equipment using proper grounding techniques. IMHO ground resistance variations, as long as you are in the safety zone, are almost meaningless.

Is this an assumption from reading forum threads or have you been involved in tested multiple systems with poor grounds that have been improved upon and now have a very low resistance high performance ground?

FWIW, the last ground rod I tested that was maybe 10 to 15 years old was 235 ohms. Way way way out of spec. I almost failed the inspection, but I told the inspector, look, I didn't modify the panel, all I did was try to improve upon the existing grounding scheme by tying a piece of rebar from a shallow stem wall the general poured into the existing grounding system. FWIW, the stem wall ground was crap. It was about 125 ohms. Together I was around mid 70 ohms. Which is still out of NEC compliance. But since I had not modified the service I was not required to drive new rods.

What I am telling you all is that a 10 year or older electrical service at your house may have a ground that is no where near code compliant. And way out of audiophile acceptability. Possibly GEM helps keep it stable over the years but I have no data to validate this.

But this thread was about floating a ground rod in your yard and tying your stereo system to it thinking your isolating your audio system from your dirty house power. All the while creating a lethal shock hazard. In reality your house power may not be as dirty as you think. It may just have a bad ground.