Don_Camillo on knocking down, draging out the Linn LP12 to get it even more the best player of the world

Don_Camillo

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You all know about the best turntable ever, do you? Take it with Linn: "Unmatched for almost five decades, the Sondek LP12 remains the pinnacle of record player design. An icon that’s still evolving. A revolution that's still revolving." :cool:

It all started with a late 80s LP12 in a genuine Greaves of Sheffield Ltd corner braced walnut plinth with Valhalla, Cirkus, Ittok LVII and an Audio Technica AT-155LC but I wanted to higher its performance with some third party gadgets and bits

0bVIqfph.jpg

QkQKghXh.jpg

Thus I´ve bought a Origin Live DC Motor Kit second hand some time ago

cH4qSnAh.jpg

This was upgraded with a modified mounting plate in order to stay with original belt length

3ml2TJah.jpg

SUV7pRrh.jpg

as well as to go for Origin Lives fiber reinforced upgrade belt

dxkNE49h.jpg

Done :cool:

XohzOieh.jpg

gIwvwjSh.jpg

This step already sounds promising. But there is more to come. Get you life enriched, Music is the soundtrack to your life. And this or that LP12 makes it even better. ;)
 
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Don_Camillo

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Just an update on motor performance: Measured with Turntable Speed Wow and flutter is at 0,02% now, what´s really impressing for any belt drive turntable. But I´ll do some more sophisticated measurements with a pro wow and flutter meter soon.

Just a tiny peeks through the keyhole at what´s coming next

875_-202903305.jpg
 

mtemur

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Just an update on motor performance: Measured with Turntable Speed Wow and flutter is at 0,02% now, what´s really impressing for any belt drive turntable. But I´ll do some more sophisticated measurements with a pro wow and flutter meter soon.
Which program or app are you using?
 

Don_Camillo

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mtemur

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I´m using this one
Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vinylrpm&hl=en_US&gl=US
iOS: https://apps.apple.com/au/app/turntable-speed/id1604670976

But next measurements I´ll do with a Woelke ME-108 as well as with Dr. Jordan Design WIN Audio MLS Speedalyzer.

View attachment 95764

I'm curious to see how accurate the mobile app and the old Wow & Flutter Meter really are
Unfortunately smartphone apps are not accurate. They are consistent but far from being accurate. You will need a good test record to use Woelke. If you have AP or similar test record with 3or 3.15kHz track you can also use WFGUI. it’s a free program for win and very accurate.
http://www.ant-audio.co.uk/index.php?cat=post&qry=library

IMHO for more accurate results use Analogmagik software.
 

Don_Camillo

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Unfortunately smartphone apps are not accurate. They are consistent but far from being accurate.

Of course, I´m fully aware of mobile apps beeing far from accurate. This is exactly why I´m going to measure again with the Woelke and my existing Audio Analyzer setup (e.g. Dr. Jordan WinAudioMLS with Speedalyzer module). The Woelke is designed for 3150 Hz. COnsequently I´ve stocked necessary test records in correspondingly good condition and multiple versions as well as copies over time. Otherwise such equipment won´t make any sense ;)

IMHO for more accurate results use Analogmagik software.
Hmm, they are saying 0,2% is an appropriate result, 0,1% a good result. Sorry, but no, this software seems to me to be an amateur gadget. I´m hardly going with this one nowhere but rather go with real pro gear. :cool:
 
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mtemur

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Hmm, they are saying 0,2% is an appropriate result, 0,1% a good result. Sorry, but no, this software seems to me to be an amateur gadget. I´m hardly going with this one nowhere but rather go with real pro gear. :cool:
whether or not 0.2 % is an appropriate or 0.1% is a good result that's another subject but about the "pro gear" you prepare to use, are they really calibrated? are you sure they're at tip top condition? which standard they use for measurement? are you sure you really get %0.02 un-weighted wow&flutter when you test your turntable with your meter and test record?

a couple of post prior you were using and sharing smartphone measurements and now you're calling modern computer software made especially for this purpose as an "amateur gadget"?

ok. I wish you good luck

P.S. I ask the questions in order to improve measurements with outdated gear. not actually to be answered here.
 
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Don_Camillo

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a couple of post prior you were using and sharing smartphone measurements and now you're calling modern computer software made especially for this purpose as an "amateur gadget"?
You might have missed that I´m also using Dr. Jordan WinAudioMLS. This is modern computer software for measurements in the pro range and of course appropriatly calibrated. So nothing to be upset, confused or even more.

And yes, reading about 0,2% Wow and flutter would be an acceptable and good value degrades the other software to a gadget for amateurs. Acceptable is any value below 0,1%, good any value below 0,05% and best class starts below 0,025%.

P.S.: In case the Woelke needs to be re-calibrated this will be done.

P.P.S.: Just for your amusement - that´s a fancy test record with 3150 Hz tone for Wow & Flutter measurments :cool:
EUMIG Testschallplatte_1.jpg

EUMIG Testschallplatte_2.jpg

EUMIG Testschallplatte_3.jpg
 
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mtemur

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You might have missed that I´m also using Dr. Jordan WinMLS.
are you sure Dr. Jordan WinMLS measures wow&flutter? which standard? how is the process?

This is modern computer software for measurements in the pro range and of course appropriatly calibrated. So nothing to be upset, confused or even more.
what about the woelke? is it calibrated in the last 12 months?

Acceptable is any value below 0,1%, good any value below 0,05% and best class starts below 0,025%.
again which standard?
 

mtemur

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P.P.S.: Just for your amusement - that´s a fancy test record with 3150 Hz tone for Wow & Flutter measurments :cool:
thank you for sharing a pink, 7" test record from 1980. I understood how precise you measure.
 
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Don_Camillo

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what about the woelke? is it calibrated in the last 12 months?

Hopefully I'm not writing in Chinese. Of course I´ll going to check the calibration first. The operating manual explains to you wht measurements can be done and what standards are used. When interested you´re free to look at it. Same for all of the capabilities of Dr. Jordan Design WinAudioMLS, what is used in science also.

Just for my curiosity: How is proper calibrating ensured with this amateur gadget your proposing?? Why do you tacitly accept flaws in the product you were proposing with beeing a product aimed at people without any technical knowledge and training, unable to understand the dependencies between the various evaluation methods at all or to ensure proper calibration? And now don't bother me with the software will calibrate itself unless you don´t assume that for other software as well. :rolleyes:

thank you for sharing a pink, 7" test record from 1980. I understood how precise you measure.
Humor is not yours?
 
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mtemur

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Hopefully I'm not writing in Chinese. Of course I´ll going to check the calibration first. The operating manual explains to you wht measurements can be done and what standards are used. When interested you´re free to look at it. Same for all of the capabilities of Dr. Jordan Design WinAudioMLS, what is used in science also.

Just for my curiosity: How is proper calibrating ensured with this amateur gadget your proposing?? Why do you tacitly accept flaws in the product you were proposing with beeing a product aimed at people without any technical knowledge and training, unable to understand the dependencies between the various evaluation methods at all or to ensure proper calibration? And now don't bother me with the software will calibrate itself unless you don´t assume that for other software as well. :rolleyes:


Humor is not yours?
You said that you gave up before. Erased it and now you’re shooting back. :)

IMO it’s better after you learn more about wow&flutter and it’s standards we’ll talk again.ok ;)

P.S. I’m not writing in Chinese either. what had been wrong if I would have been?
 
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Don_Camillo

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Today I come back to you with an update on the world's best record player and share a real sensation. angel We're talking about the Union Jack, lodges, the Freemasons, heraldry, the George's, St. Andrew's and Patrick's crosses and what this has to do with the structure of an LP12 or, more precisely, with the installation and the vibration behavior of a sub-chassis.:p

It all started in 1717, with the 2nd Duke of Montagu and the belief that constant work on oneself leads to self-knowledge and more humane behaviour. That sounds like everything and nothing at first, but the actual reason for this step was that the theaters, which were slowly emerging, were able to visually convey the play in color, but acoustically the play remained difficult to transport to the ears of the audience. This was less a question of language but more likely a clear case of the lack of trained ears; the medium of acting was still too young and misunderstood, and music was only adequate for conveying messages in the smallest of circles. :cool:

So the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLoE) became the great patron of public speech, drama and music, forcing free and open transportation of information. When the kingdom was to be given a more modern face in 1801 and the Union Jack was introduced, those people were of course not only silently involved, but suggested the combination of the English flag and the George's Cross (red cross on a white background) , the Scottish flag (white St. Andrew's cross on a blue background) and St. Patrick's cross (red St. Andrew's cross on a white background).

UJ_best turntable construction plot (1).png

At first glance, all of this sounds pretty innocuous and you will ask yourself what this has to do with the best turntable in the world?

It was Edward, the 2nd Duke of Kent, Queen Elizabeth II's cousin and Grand Master of the UGLoE from 1968 to the present, who presented Ivor Tiefenbrunn the Union Jack as the encrypted blueprint for the world's best record player. Ivor was the first to understand that this did not require a sub-chassis in the shape of a cross. So he clearly set himself apart from Edgar Villchur. Ivor understood that the superposition of St. George's, St. Andrew's and St. Patrick's crosses indicated the vibration directions, the distances between St. George's and St. Andrew's crosses indicated the maximum permissible amplitude of the vibration, and the St. Patrick's cross and its vexilological value indicated the position of the center of gravity of this divinely optimal subchassis. At the same time, this superimposition shows the order in which the individual parts of the construction are to be arranged and how the sub-chassis is to be built into the construction; it is also an encrypted assembly manual.o_O

die kolbenförmige Schwingrichtung (1).jpg
Today we also know what mistake Edgar Villchur made. He only ever recalled the Scottish version of the flag design with the St. Andrew's Cross in the foreground.
schott_UJ-version (1).png
Obviously he opted for a cross-shaped sub-chassis rather than a rhombus-shaped one. If the last version with the Patrick's cross added in 1801 had prevailed in his mind's eye, this mistake would probably not have happened to him.
occasion18


To which extent Queen Elisabeth was involved in handing over the encoded blueprint for the world's best record player to Ivor Tiefenbrunn has not been fully documented, but Edward wouldn't have done anything without your consent. Now it is also certain that the LP12 is a design by the grace of God. That's why it's the logical consequence of being the world's best turntable.
cheesy


Sure, that probably went too fast and those who have never assembled an LP12 will have many question marks in their minds. But just listen; after all, hearing is the cornerstone of believing, as you all know very well
cool


The story is too Shakespearean for you?o_O

Then just let me tell you that Shakespeare himself was Grand Master of the Stratford-upon-Avon lodge and that the Union Jack even contains the various expansion stages of the DECCA TREE with the associated miking rules. Just take a closer look at the Union Jack.
decca tree 1 (1).jpg
The orange circles show the correct position of the microphones for the best possible stereo recording according to the so-called DECCA Tree
angel
grin
grin
grin


I´m pretty sure that with this sensational background information the next steps and their perceptions will be much easier to understand.
afro


If you want to change the LP12s sub-chassis, you first have to remove the outer and inner platter, close the platter bearing, then remove the base plate, remove the tonearm, then remove the so-called cross brace, remove the tonearm cable and to disconnect ground wire. Then you can retain the three springs. However, with the corner braced plinths, the corner reinforcements prevent the subchassis from being removed downwards with the tonearm board mounted. So it is pulled out through the side opening between the top plate and the frame and the new sub-chassis is threaded through this cut-out in reverse order from above into position.

So that is exactly what the lines of superimposed crosses on the Union Jack indicate. Can you see how fiction meets reality in this point?

Subchassis Mounting instructions in uJ (1).png
And this is what I exactly did next. The Analogue Innovation Sole MK1 went in.

Before
IMGP1915 (Benutzerdefiniert) (1).JPG

After
IMGP2199 (Benutzerdefiniert).JPG

If you look closely, you can see the silver sub-chassis is now peeping through between the armboard and top plate; before it was black as night, but neither did I find Sauron in the plinth
angel


Some time later I´ve managed to prepare the Audio Classique acrylic armboard I´ve used with the Cirkus sub-chassis previously to fit to the Sole subchassis also

IMGP2280 (Benutzerdefiniert).JPG IMGP2283 (Benutzerdefiniert).JPG
 

Don_Camillo

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Some preliminary work with Stack Audio Serene Tenor, Gedore, Stahlwille and Belzer Liliput

IMGP2304 (Benutzerdefiniert) (1).JPG

Stack Audio Serene Tenor top plate and baseboard went also in.

6QIpG8oh.jpg

Here you can see the screws of the Serene Tenors sandwich construction

vWEWuUih.jpg

Theo Stack of Stack Audio sent me a Serene Alto Cross Brace too. Many thanks for that. I highly appreciate it.

YpeidZyh.jpg

Of course this went in too

Before

cJvECDrh.jpg

After
sifsUnHh.jpg

I just love it :cool:
 

Don_Camillo

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This you must ken!
From one make ten,
And two let be,
Make even three,
Then rich you'll be.
Skip o'er the four!
From five and six,
The Witch's tricks,
Make seven and eight,
'Tis finished straight;

IMGP3747 (Benutzerdefiniert).JPG

And nine is one,
And ten is none,
That is the witch's one-time-one!

And here's what the divine linework glued under the plater looks like - even if it looks like it could have been glued on eccentrically in the photo; my caliper doesn't lie at all. :cool: :cool: :cool:

IMGP3748 (Benutzerdefiniert).JPG

So it's done, Catweazle and Gandalf were just visiting me and just nodded ecstatically. Salmei, Dalmei, Adomei and Schampampurasch he murmured and then dashed off. And the Gandalf? Yes, I completely forgot about him. I think he's still sitting in the loft
grin


I stayed with the fabric-reinforced rubber strap from Origin Live. And it's amazing what happens there with the Mober DC Kit. If the step from the synchronous motor with Valhalla to the Origin Live DC motor was already big, the step now is even bigger. The rhythm is now just as stable as with the TOTL direct-drives, drive and punch are reminiscent of a good idler or DD. And I'm not talking about the the drive you know of those entry-level idlers like an L75 or 1019, but you get back with the big boys like Commonwealth 12D or EMT 930.

IMGP3750 (Benutzerdefiniert).JPG

I call it Exaktik or Superiorik now
grin
 
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SONDEKNZ

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This you must ken!
From one make ten,
And two let be,
Make even three,
Then rich you'll be.
Skip o'er the four!
From five and six,
The Witch's tricks,
Make seven and eight,
'Tis finished straight;

View attachment 101174

And nine is one,
And ten is none,
That is the witch's one-time-one!

And here's what the divine linework glued under the plater looks like - even if it looks like it could have been glued on eccentrically in the photo; my caliper doesn't lie at all. :cool: :cool: :cool:

View attachment 101175

So it's done, Catweazle and Gandalf were just visiting me and just nodded ecstatically. Salmei, Dalmei, Adomei and Schampampurasch he murmured and then dashed off. And the Gandalf? Yes, I completely forgot about him. I think he's still sitting in the loft
grin


I stayed with the fabric-reinforced rubber strap from Origin Live. And it's amazing what happens there with the Mober DC Kit. If the step from the synchronous motor with Valhalla to the Origin Live DC motor was already big, the step now is even bigger. The rhythm is now just as stable as with the TOTL direct-drives, drive and punch are reminiscent of a good idler or DD. And I'm not talking about the the drive you know of those entry-level idlers like an L75 or 1019, but you get back with the big boys like Commonwealth 12D or EMT 930.

View attachment 101176

I call it Exaktik or Superiorik now
grin

Nice work, Don. Nice thread too.

I'd like to recommend that you consider replacing the LINN Springs with $100 worth of AUDIOSILENTE Silicone Mushrooms.

It is still very much a suspended turntable, but the suspension rests on silicone mushrooms - instead of metal springs - which not only continues to provide superb isolation, but importantly, also stops the constant sub-chassis (micro-)twisting back and forth, in response to the motor torque, with the rubber belt constantly loading up and letting-go.

(Not to mention NO metal springs singing along with the music... )

The springless LP12 sounds just like a LINN Sondek LP12, without the constant speed (micro-)flutter.

Hundreds of converts worldwide. Only 2 reverts that I know of, but I suspect they got the install wrong.

Google it for more info...

Or start here: THE SPRINGLESS LP12...

TW WAND LP12 1.jpg
 
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No Regrets

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Jan 24, 2012
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This you must ken!
From one make ten,
And two let be,
Make even three,
Then rich you'll be.
Skip o'er the four!
From five and six,
The Witch's tricks,
Make seven and eight,
'Tis finished straight;

View attachment 101174

And nine is one,
And ten is none,
That is the witch's one-time-one!

And here's what the divine linework glued under the plater looks like - even if it looks like it could have been glued on eccentrically in the photo; my caliper doesn't lie at all. :cool: :cool: :cool:

View attachment 101175

So it's done, Catweazle and Gandalf were just visiting me and just nodded ecstatically. Salmei, Dalmei, Adomei and Schampampurasch he murmured and then dashed off. And the Gandalf? Yes, I completely forgot about him. I think he's still sitting in the loft
grin


I stayed with the fabric-reinforced rubber strap from Origin Live. And it's amazing what happens there with the Mober DC Kit. If the step from the synchronous motor with Valhalla to the Origin Live DC motor was already big, the step now is even bigger. The rhythm is now just as stable as with the TOTL direct-drives, drive and punch are reminiscent of a good idler or DD. And I'm not talking about the the drive you know of those entry-level idlers like an L75 or 1019, but you get back with the big boys like Commonwealth 12D or EMT 930.

View attachment 101176

I call it Exaktik or Superiorik now
grin


I've been using the Mober DC supply for a couple of years now and absolutely love it. Previous to the Mober I was using the Pink Link DC motor and power supply which was good, but the Mober is the real deal!

Just look at the size of the Swiss DC Mober motor as shown on the left vs the DC motor from the Pink Link. So massive! But it's more than just the motor... it's the controller and everything that it does which is so amazing:cool:


IMG_2695.JPG


I absolutely love my LP12/ARO/Benz Zebrawood Ruby MC/Custom Brazilian Rosewood Plinth/Mober DC power supply analog rig :)

fullsizeoutput_5f8c.jpeg


Having it placed on the Symposium mounted to the studs of a load bearing wall, keeps me from having any footfall problems even with having sprung hardwood floors in my music room. My wife and I can be dancing to the music, quite literally jumping up and down right in front of the turntable and it doesn't skip a beat ;)

fullsizeoutput_5f8b.jpeg

Best wishes to all,
Don
 

Audiohertz2

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2023
573
323
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Nice work, Don. Nice thread too.

I'd like to recommend that you consider replacing the LINN Springs with $100 worth of AUDIOSILENTE Silicone Mushrooms.

It is still very much a suspended turntable, but the suspension rests on silicone mushrooms - instead of metal springs - which not only continues to provide superb isolation, but importantly, also stops the constant sub-chassis (micro-)twisting back and forth, in response to the motor torque, with the rubber belt constantly loading up and letting-go.

(Not to mention NO metal springs singing along with the music... )

The springless LP12 sounds just like a LINN Sondek LP12, without the constant speed (micro-)flutter.

Hundreds of converts worldwide. Only 2 reverts that I know of, but I suspect they got the install wrong.

Google it for more info...

Or start here: THE SPRINGLESS LP12...

View attachment 121783

Couldn't find the mushrooms black or clear ones on their Website ..


Regards
 

SONDEKNZ

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2021
51
41
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The AUDIOSILENTE Silicone Mushrooms are clear-coloured.

I bought mine from LINNARTS in Sweden.
LINNARTS (Sweden)

I hear that they are also able to be sourced individually from the following: -
RS Product Code & Details

Another source has suggested that the product is actually called the Taica B-1 GEL Bush, it can be easily found online, both Mouser Electronics and DigiKey have plenty in stock.

They come as interlocking Male/Female. You need three males and three females for the LP12.

The top mushroom presses directly against the underside of the LP12 sub-chassis.

A large "mudguard" washer is needed under the lower mushroom, before the adjusting nut is tightened.

AUDIO SILIENTE SILICONE MUSHROOMS - Arrows.png
 
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