Done with digital

rando

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Sep 22, 2019
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Wil, if you own a reasonably modern phone with a camera. Open it up and navigate through any settings that dictate availability of digital zoom.

Otherwise I have no further comment. No other thoughts on digital photography to cloud this thread with.
 

SoundMann

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Jun 29, 2022
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Agreed, but it seems many die-hard vinylphiles these days often seem to focus on this purported golden age of performance of the 50s and 60s and proclaim it was the best.
These recordings (outside of direct-to-disc) are the most realistic sounding that have been produced in the long-play record era.
 
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SoundMann

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The initial subject of this thread, imho, is less interesting and more narrow minded. The op has said repeatedly, across a few forums, how horrible digital sound is and how it makes him feel ill-- as if it is some universal truth.
It's clearly not universal. It was a personal statement and declaration. Not all digital recordings sound "horrible", but they don't quite sound like the real thing either.
 

PeterA

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These recordings (outside of direct-to-disc) are the most realistic sounding that have been produced in the long-play record era.

I totally agree with you. This is the What’s Best Forum. Why are people upset when others proclaim something is the best? In this case it is opinion but also a consensus. Holding up the golden age of vinyl LPs does not mean that anyone is saying everything else is terrible or there there aren’t other recordings from different eras that sound wonderful. Just ask Zerostargeneral.

Sometimes, there’s nothing wrong with suggesting that things can be separated and categorized by good, better and best.
 

Lee

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I totally agree with you. This is the What’s Best Forum. Why are people upset when others proclaim something is the best? In this case it is opinion but also a consensus. Holding up the golden age of vinyl LPs does not mean that anyone is saying everything else is terrible or there there aren’t other recordings from different eras that sound wonderful. Just ask Zerostargeneral.

Sometimes, there’s nothing wrong with suggesting that things can be separated and categorized by good, better and best.

I was just about to type something similar. A little thought experiment….

Maybe I am right and DSD is on par or arguably better than 24/96 PCM. There is some significant consensus on this among recording and mastering engineers.

Maybe Mike is right and he has special insights from his Wadax rig playing the same files…maybe as more hear the Wadax or quivalent or better the consensus moves in Mike’s direction.

It seems to me that WBF’s purpose and value is that we can have views from folks like me and Mike and share observations. The knowledge changes and gets updated as needed.

In the process, everyone learns and makes better equipment and music choices.

I am oversimplifying a bit here but hopefully this makes some sense.
 
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John T

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Torturous! Water Board me! Attempt, try, to just enjoy what you are listening too!! if you love analog enjoy! If you love digital enjoy! If you love both enjoy! Talk about a convoluted discussion. OMG! Frightening! Analytical hogwash. What do you all think we are doing? Dissecting an atom? Wild shit here...
 
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Lee

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Torturous! Water Board me! Attempt, try, to just enjoy what you are listening too!! if you love analog enjoy! If you love digital enjoy! If you love both enjoy! Talk about a convoluted discussion. OMG! Frightening! Analytical hogwash. What do you all think we are doing? Dissecting an atom? Wild shit here...
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
 
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Lee

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One more observation from a discussion I had with Robert Watts of Chord DAC fame. He felt, and I strongly agree, that in order to really test a DAC beyond just measurements (assume subjective and objective are required for the discussion) you need to make an ADC. The idea is that with an ADC, you can test the whole approach by micing a group of musicians and recording the entire ADC to ADC process. Then you compare the the playback in real time to the performance. Each iteration of ADC-DAC gets you closer if you do it correct. ADCs are made by Chord, dCS, and MSB. I think Wadax should build one for the same reasons.

One might also record to analog tape at 30ips and compare that to the ADC-DAC output. Obviously, this should be a two-track recording for purity and ease of comparing playback.

The ultimate test would be to do this for all the top DAC contenders: Chord (tap approach), MSB (chip approach), dCS (Ring DAC approach), and ideally when they build an ADC, Wadax and Lampizator.

Done well, the final results could be posted online digital and the tape recording could be done at 32/384. One would want to just test PCM for similar conditions being equal.
 
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rDin

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rDin

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This has been going on since i joined about 10 years ago .

The truth is .....the Conclusion : Its basically a useless discussion
Then you aren't paying attention. Even in discussions where polar positions are taken, there is plenty to learn if you are open enough to listen... Ultimately, if you aren't interested in the discussion, you are free to leave ;)
 
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John T

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My intent was not to be disrespectful. But to point out the redundancy. BTW, I have learned an incredible amount of valuable information on WBF. Not in this discussion.
 

rDin

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My intent was not to be disrespectful. But to point out the redundancy. BTW, I have learned an incredible amount of valuable information on WBF. Not in this discussion.
Redundancy, you say. There's a lovely irony here :p
 

Phillyb

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Digital and tape sound different , i think you can enjoy both
More to your point, very turntable sounds different, arm, platter, mat used, and then the actual impact on top of all of those colorations is what cartridge you selected. Like cooking, we all have our tastes and the spices we like to add. I enjoyed my turntable days I grew up in this hobby with vinyl. Linn, SOTA Sapphire, Oracle, then the Luxman PD44 and a few others, etc. All brought area different sonics of a given recording, and my cartilage change could be analytical, to warmer or full body, MM or MC both had a different sound to them. Which is what makes Turntables so much fun or a pain in the butt...smile! It's like rolling tubes we all have are favorites.
 

PeterA

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More to your point, very turntable sounds different, arm, platter, mat used, and then the actual impact on top of all of those colorations is what cartridge you selected. Like cooking, we all have our tastes and the spices we like to add. I enjoyed my turntable days I grew up in this hobby with vinyl. Linn, SOTA Sapphire, Oracle, then the Luxman PD44 and a few others, etc. All brought area different sonics of a given recording, and my cartilage change could be analytical, to warmer or full body, MM or MC both had a different sound to them. Which is what makes Turntables so much fun or a pain in the butt...smile! It's like rolling tubes we all have are favorites.

This may very well be true. There is an argument for choosing the flavor you like. However, one can attempt to select components which contribute little or close to nothing to the sound. It is not easy to find these but they exist in the vinyl world. Of course this is a matter of opinion and up for debate.

I suspect people who are into digital do the very same thing with cables and footers and interfaces and streamers and DACs. Which algorithm when chooses or high one chooses to shape the signal is also a form of choosing the colorations you prefer. And I suppose, just like in the vinyl world, digital people will claim that some gear does it cleaner and with less coloration and will pronounce little to nothing added or taken away.

These are the things that people discuss and debate, and they are what differentiates some products from others, whether they are analog or digital sources.
 

Atmasphere

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Interesting take. So what if it's personal preference. I always thought that reviews were subjective. After all our ears and brains are different. Our rooms are different. Our needs are different. But regardless, i feel it is a bit odd for a professional reviewer to be so negative towards a thesis even if he or she does not agree. I am interested to hear it regardless of my personal preferences. Love your writing BTW! Aloha!
Taste is variable but how our ear/brain system interprets sound is quite similar in the entire earth's population. For example in all people higher ordered harmonics are interpreted by the ear as harshness and brightness- in fact all distortions are interpreted by the ear as some form of tonality (the early 'crispness' of digital being an example). We use the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure, louder sounds can mask quieter sounds (the basis of MP3 files) and so on.
 

Phillyb

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This may very well be true. There is an argument for choosing the flavor you like. However, one can attempt to select components which contribute little or close to nothing to the sound. It is not easy to find these but they exist in the vinyl world. Of course this is a matter of opinion and up for debate.

I suspect people who are into digital do the very same thing with cables and footers and interfaces and streamers and DACs. Which algorithm when chooses or high one chooses to shape the signal is also a form of choosing the colorations you prefer. And I suppose, just like in the vinyl world, digital people will claim that some gear does it cleaner and with less coloration and will pronounce little to nothing added or taken away.

These are the things that people discuss and debate, and they are what differentiates some products from others, whether they are analog or digital sources.
True but vinyl it does not exist, like in digital it does not, which one you enjoy does exist, but what was heard in the studio we will never know. I look at Vinyl like Electrostatic speakers, never over dynamic, limited reproduction but what they do well they do like no speaker can, I owned them for 10 years, now take my open baffle speakers, much more of everything, dynamics no contest, but compare them to Quad speakers you say the Quads were more Vinyl sounding and the open baffle more digital sound, much more upfront, dynamics across the board from highs to lows even, and to my ear more real but perhaps not as enjoyable at times as a turntable for relaxed laid back music. They both have their good points and where they lack, be nice to be able to combine both and some CD players can do it somewhat, the newest Marantz SA-10, Luxman 10X, and the newer Esoterics and others some of the Sony ES series were superb in the mid '90s and of course the SCD1 of the early 2000's. But like Vinyl it goes back to the mastering quality and production care, lots of music today has neither, so to me it does not matter the format poor sound is poor sound. Listening to Marius Roberts Piano Jazz Trio "Cole After Midnight" on CD with my open baffle speakers and I've not heard it in a few years now, and on open baffle speakers it sounds like he is in the room playing live, and that is what open baffle speakers can do if done right the put the performers in your room, like a panel or Electrostatic without the draw backs. Just a newer forward thinking design done by Clayton Shaw with his newest spatial audio designs.
 

microstrip

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One more observation from a discussion I had with Robert Watts of Chord DAC fame. He felt, and I strongly agree, that in order to really test a DAC beyond just measurements (assume subjective and objective are required for the discussion) you need to make an ADC. The idea is that with an ADC, you can test the whole approach by micing a group of musicians and recording the entire ADC to ADC process. Then you compare the the playback in real time to the performance. Each iteration of ADC-DAC gets you closer if you do it correct. ADCs are made by Chord, dCS, and MSB. I think Wadax should build one for the same reasons.

One might also record to analog tape at 30ips and compare that to the ADC-DAC output. Obviously, this should be a two-track recording for purity and ease of comparing playback.

The ultimate test would be to do this for all the top DAC contenders: Chord (tap approach), MSB (chip approach), dCS (Ring DAC approach), and ideally when they build an ADC, Wadax and Lampizator.

Done well, the final results could be posted online digital and the tape recording could be done at 32/384. One would want to just test PCM for similar conditions being equal..

I like the idea of testing an analog- digital-analog link for transparency, but find the idea that a DAC manufacturer must create an ADC to perform them bizarre and can't understand the reason behind it.

IMHO in such tests DAC manufacturers should use ADCs that are representative of what is being used by top studios - in this way the results would be meaningful for consumers and the industry. But again IMHO these tests are of limited value and should be addressed as such - single instruments or small groups of musicians are not representative of the more challenging current digital top recordings.
 

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