Done with digital

microstrip

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This may very well be true. There is an argument for choosing the flavor you like. However, one can attempt to select components which contribute little or close to nothing to the sound. It is not easy to find these but they exist in the vinyl world. Of course this is a matter of opinion and up for debate.

Stereo sound reproduction intrinsically carries choosing the flavor you like. If you want to minimize flavor you should listen to binaural using a system tuned to your specific ear.

BTW, again just MHO - I suspect that if we want to educate ourselves in analog we should put a top standard tape machine in our room.

I suspect people who are into digital do the very same thing with cables and footers and interfaces and streamers and DACs. Which algorithm when chooses or high one chooses to shape the signal is also a form of choosing the colorations you prefer. And I suppose, just like in the vinyl world, digital people will claim that some gear does it cleaner and with less coloration and will pronounce little to nothing added or taken away.

Yes, but in the usual audiophile lexicon people refer to it as being "neutral", the most abused word in audio.

These are the things that people discuss and debate, and they are what differentiates some products from others, whether they are analog or digital sources.

Yes, but some people are not happy when we show disagreement with them ...
 

Atmasphere

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True but vinyl it does not exist, like in digital it does not, which one you enjoy does exist, but what was heard in the studio we will never know. I look at Vinyl like Electrostatic speakers, never over dynamic, limited reproduction but what they do well they do like no speaker can, I owned them for 10 years, now take my open baffle speakers, much more of everything, dynamics no contest, but compare them to Quad speakers you say the Quads were more Vinyl sounding and the open baffle more digital sound, much more upfront, dynamics across the board from highs to lows even, and to my ear more real but perhaps not as enjoyable at times as a turntable for relaxed laid back music. They both have their good points and where they lack, be nice to be able to combine both and some CD players can do it somewhat, the newest Marantz SA-10, Luxman 10X, and the newer Esoterics and others some of the Sony ES series were superb in the mid '90s and of course the SCD1 of the early 2000's. But like Vinyl it goes back to the mastering quality and production care, lots of music today has neither, so to me it does not matter the format poor sound is poor sound. Listening to Marius Roberts Piano Jazz Trio "Cole After Midnight" on CD with my open baffle speakers and I've not heard it in a few years now, and on open baffle speakers it sounds like he is in the room playing live, and that is what open baffle speakers can do if done right the put the performers in your room, like a panel or Electrostatic without the draw backs. Just a newer forward thinking design done by Clayton Shaw with his newest spatial audio designs.
Just so we're clear on a couple of things. Nearly all ESLs are 'open baffle'. Sound Labs are easily as dynamic as any horn speaker and they go down to about 20Hz.

Vinyl is a lot better than most digiphiles take if for; for example the bandwidth is wider, good to at least 40KHz or higher on top. Most of the distortion occurs in playback due to cartridge alignment and other setup issues. For this reason measurements of the distortion of the LP should never be trusted!! The noise floor of the lacquers used to master the LPs is so low that the playback electronics are the noise floor- they easily rival Redbook in this regard. The surface noise occurs in the pressing process. QRP in Salinas Kansas sorted out that if you damp all the bits that shake in in the pressing machines that you can get much quieter pressings- nearly that of the lacquers! I bought an LP mastering lathe about 30 years ago and refurbished it and cut LPs. A lot of my misconceptions about the LP died a horrible death thru that process.
 

andromedaaudio

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I liked the Wadax digital in munich but i also missed a good telefunken tape set up with a tube stage.
To me the best of both worlds.
I heard a couple of tape set ups , KROMA audio had the most serious set up
Tim de paravicini had a nice set up , Kharma had the small thorens machine.


Ps Im not a LP specialist nor that i want to , i like things straight forward / easy / simple
 
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PYP

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Informative and balanced (IMO) analysis of vinyl vs. digital from Grimm Audio, which designs and manufactures products for home and pro markets: https://www.grimmaudio.com/blogs/vinyl-versus-digital/ The internal link regarding the "loudness war" is also interesting.
 

Lee

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I like the idea of testing an analog- digital-analog link for transparency, but find the idea that a DAC manufacturer must create an ADC to perform them bizarre and can't understand the reason behind it.

IMHO in such tests DAC manufacturers should use ADCs that are representative of what is being used by top studios - in this way the results would be meaningful for consumers and the industry. But again IMHO these tests are of limited value and should be addressed as such - single instruments or small groups of musicians are not representative of the more challenging current digital top recordings.
If you read my post you will find that it contains the reason for the test. The closeness of the playback to the real event is the benchmark. You are effectively using an approach to design a very transparent ADC and DAC. If successful it won’t matter what variety the recording is done on.
 

microstrip

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If you read my post you will find that it contains the reason for the test. The closeness of the playback to the real event is the benchmark. You are effectively using an approach to design a very transparent ADC and DAC. If successful it won’t matter what variety the recording is done on.

I would say a very complimentary ADC/DAC pair. Interesting, but what is the point, other than pure marketing?
 

Sampajanna

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Do you think age plays a role in this? I mean if you spent years, or even decades investing time, energy and developing critical listening with an analogue rig, you may not shake that reference. Plus records will have nostalgia for you. I’m not suggesting analogue is worse, just wondering what role that experience plays in a possible bias. My dad had records, but I started with tapes and CDs and didn’t become an audiophile til later on (ten yrs ago), so my rig has always been digital. i have seen members around the forum say that digital is complicated, which I find interesting because I understand the elements and find it easy to understand, whereas a turntable feels very intimidating and complicated. I am sure many young people would say the same generationally: my dad doesnt know his way around a computer but does know his way around a car engine. I am the exact opposite…. Just some thoughts on this topic..
 

rDin

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Do you think age plays a role in this? I mean if you spent years, or even decades investing time, energy and developing critical listening
Undoubtedly, but perhaps not for the reason (bias) you suggest. Could it simply be that the aged audiophile, the experienced critical listener, is better able to hear differences in the formats? Or, in terms of bias, we could turn the argument around; could it be the younger listener is biased towards the idea that digital is perfect?
 

bonzo75

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Do you think age plays a role in this? I mean if you spent years, or even decades investing time, energy and developing critical listening with an analogue rig, you may not shake that reference. Plus records will have nostalgia for you. I’m not suggesting analogue is worse, just wondering what role that experience plays in a possible bias. My dad had records, but I started with tapes and CDs and didn’t become an audiophile til later on (ten yrs ago), so my rig has always been digital. i have seen members around the forum say that digital is complicated, which I find interesting because I understand the elements and find it easy to understand, whereas a turntable feels very intimidating and complicated. I am sure many young people would say the same generationally: my dad doesnt know his way around a computer but does know his way around a car engine. I am the exact opposite…. Just some thoughts on this topic..


No, I am your generation, had no records, didn't want any, but then I got exposed to some good analog and good records. The sound cannot be ignored. I still dislike the whole ritual of playing an LP, the accessories etc but sonically with the right recordings it is irresistible. Definitely not advisable, if someone is not into analog they should stay away from it. It is not practical
 

Kal Rubinson

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Undoubtedly, but perhaps not for the reason (bias) you suggest. Could it simply be that the aged audiophile, the experienced critical listener, is better able to hear differences in the formats? Or, in terms of bias, we could turn the argument around; could it be the younger listener is biased towards the idea that digital is perfect?
Both are not only possible but expressed in the many forums where this annoying topic has been posted. I wonder at the need to resolve an issue of personal preference.
 

wil

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Undoubtedly, but perhaps not for the reason (bias) you suggest. Could it simply be that the aged audiophile, the experienced critical listener, is better able to hear differences in the formats? Or, in terms of bias, we could turn the argument around; could it be the younger listener is biased towards the idea that digital is perfect?
No one in their right mind argues digital, or analog, is "perfect."
 
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facten

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In my opinion digital isn't complicated. Heck this hobby isn't complicated. People try to make it complicated.

For me digital is straightforward as I only have a CD transport and DAC. To me from reading various Forums and/or other material digital has the potential to be at least viewed as complicated when one gets involved with streaming, and how far you go with maximizing the setup - room separation, modem/router LPS, switches, ethernet filters, reclockers , Roon endpoint/core, Roon or something else, etc. I read on another Forum yesterday that someone changed his router and now his streamer won't recognize the new network no matter what he has tried to establish it. So, for some it might be straightforward if they are comfortable with all of that, others maybe not.
 

rDin

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Both are not only possible but expressed in the many forums where this annoying topic has been posted. I wonder at the need to resolve an issue of personal preference.
But why the annoyance, Kal? The same old topics do indeed come up, but could it not be that (sometimes, at least) those asking are new to the hobby and looking for opinions and the knowledge of those more experienced? We've all benefited from forum discussions over the decades. And still do. It would be rude to deny other members the opportunity to ask questions.
 

rDin

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No one in their right mind argues digital, or analog, is "perfect."
One possibility of a discussion such as this is to explore that idea.
 

Al M.

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For me digital is straightforward as I only have a CD transport and DAC.

Similar here, simple:
CD transport > reclocker > DAC

To me from reading various Forums and/or other material digital has the potential to be at least viewed as complicated when one gets involved with streaming, and how far you go with maximizing the setup - room separation, modem/router LPS, switches, ethernet filters, reclockers , Roon endpoint/core, Roon or something else, etc. I read on another Forum yesterday that someone changed his router and now his streamer won't recognize the new network no matter what he has tried to establish it. So, for some it might be straightforward if they are comfortable with all of that, others maybe not.

Indeed, it can get complicated. I have heard good sounding solutions that are apparently simple, but those are expensive, or intensive DIY. Not interested either way.
 

Kal Rubinson

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But why the annoyance, Kal? The same old topics do indeed come up, but could it not be that (sometimes, at least) those asking are new to the hobby and looking for opinions and the knowledge of those more experienced? We've all benefited from forum discussions over the decades. And still do. It would be rude to deny other members the opportunity to ask questions.
That is a good question. I do question why I am annoyed. Perhaps it has to do with the lack of progress in the discussion which contributors (including me) recycle familiar ideas. Another may have to do with the fact that, in this maturing age of information, newbies do not seem to take advantage of Internet archives to answer their basic questions as well as the more philosophical and psychophysical issues.
 

bryans

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For me digital is straightforward as I only have a CD transport and DAC. To me from reading various Forums and/or other material digital has the potential to be at least viewed as complicated when one gets involved with streaming, and how far you go with maximizing the setup - room separation, modem/router LPS, switches, ethernet filters, reclockers , Roon endpoint/core, Roon or something else, etc. I read on another Forum yesterday that someone changed his router and now his streamer won't recognize the new network no matter what he has tried to establish it. So, for some it might be straightforward if they are comfortable with all of that, others maybe not.
See for me it's not complicated because I don't fall into all of the modem change, LPS, switches, standing on one leg etc. If one is into that then great for them. In the end it comes down to one's perspective.

If someone believes that using an "Audiophile" switch makes their soundstage wider and the music more "Analog" go for it. I'm sure when the next version of that switch comes out we will hear how much more Analog and wider the soundstage has become. And if this is the case I say good for them.
 

godofwealth

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I’ll share my (longish) thoughts on this endless analog vs. digital question. I’ve been buying digital recordings for 37 years (first CD bought in 1985!), and have bought vinyl all the way through these years as well. I have owned countless DACs and transports over the past 37 years, from Theta Digital to dCS and Esoteric to now the Lampizator Pacific. Digital has come a long way towards sounding more like analog. The old threadbare sound of early digital has greatly reduced on todays best DACs. The Lampizator Pacific is truly state of the art. But the gap has not been closed. Not by a long shot.

The very best sound I get at my house is on a restored Garrard 301 turntable with an SME 312S arm with a Miyajima Infinity Zero mono cartridge. Yes, mono! If you want to hear vinyl at its very very best, mono is the way to go. Forget silly stereo! As the great violinist Jascha Heifetz put it, forget “high phooey and hystereo”. If you want to hear The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Ella Fitzgerald, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington, and literally thousands of the greatest singers, musicians and performers from 1930s-1960s, the golden age of recorded music, vinyl is it and mono tops stereo by a country mile in my house. Once you hear John Coltrane’s throbbing sax shimmering in absolute three dimensional mono sound, or the huge explosive dynamics of the original recordings of The Beatles in true mono, or Bob Dylan’s gravelly voice in beautiful mono, you can forget about stereo versions, all of which sound cartoonish in my system in comparison. Bob Dylan absolutely hated the stereo versions of his recordings, which sound grotesque to my ears, harmonica in one channel, his voice in another, guitar somewhere in one or the other, sometimes the engineer forgets to pan the sound, so instruments change from one channel to other. What a joke!

Just imagine Bon Dylan, the only rock and roll musician to win the Nobel Prize in literature, singing in front of you, his guitar in front of him and his trademark harmonica dangling from his mouth. Where’s the “stereo” here? The Beatles also absolutely hated the stereo versions of their legendary albums. They personally supervised the mono mastering, which has explosive dynamics. The fake stereo versions were done by some flunkey and they never cared for it. It’s a throttled version of their original sound.

if you’ve never heard a true mono cartridge, you’d be amazed. Surface noise is almost completely banished, thanks to the cartridge only responding to lateral groove modulation. Even beaten up 70 year old records from the 1950s sound fabulous on my Miyajima Infinity Zero cartridge, the world‘s best mono cartridge. Forget audiophile nonsense. Buy mono albums, the earlier the pressing, the better. The original Ella Fitzgerald mono recordings of the great American songbooks are the ones to get. Even the Time Life Jazz classics featuring the greatest jazz performers from the 1920s to 1940s, many sourced from 78 rpm masters, sound fabulous. Yes, there some unavoidable noise in the earliest masters, but your ears tune this out in a few seconds. The Miyajima cartridge is a beast, probably twice as big as any other cartridge. Weighs a lot too, so you need a massive arm. But, boy, does it blow the Lampizator Pacific away.

I enjoy streaming music on Roon as much as any of you, and the convenience of listening to many new classical high resolution albums of music I don’t own. But when I want to have a true spiritual experience, like listening to Frank Sinatra singing his heart out on “Only the Lonely”, or Ella Fitzgerald great songbooks or Johnny Cash or Elvis Presley or heck, even The Beach Boys great album Animal Sounds, the recording that so captivated The Beatles (Paul McCartney called it the greatest rock and roll album of all time), I turn to vinyl in true mono. That remains for me personally the closest approach to the original sound (as Quad’s Peter Walker used to say). Stereo is a gimmick and surround sound an even worse gimmick. Every time I hear a piano recording with the mike thrust inside the instrument painting a ridiculous sonic image, I wonder if these recording engineers have ever hear a piano in a concert hall. The piano is placed sideways and you hear the sound in, you guessed it, mono! There’s no stereo sound from a piano when you’re sitting hundreds of feet away looking at the piano sideways.

I could give a long geeky argument on why digital PCM is inherently flawed, but that would require math. Don’t get fooled by the specs you see reported, that’s a lot of malarkey. When you record an oboe in an orchestra, ask yourself how many bits of resolution do you have to work with? Remember you cannot overload in digital. If you start with 16 bits, as many recordings over the past 30 years have done, you have to give some slack and you loose a couple of bits of headroom. The orchestra playing full tilt has to be captured in 14 bits or so. Ok, now consider a solitary oboe playing. That’s 50 dB down in volume from the full orchestra. How many bits do you have left? Roughly 6 bits of resolution to capture the oboe. No wonder my 5000 odd CDs I have, 80% classical, have not impressed me with the sound of the oboe I hear in the concert hall.

Digital PCM is linear. Human hearing is nonlinear and adaptive. As the sound reduces, we turn up our aural resolution, so to speak. It turns out that at our most sensitive frequency zone, we can hear sounds that move the eardrum by less than the width of a hydrogen atom! Human hearing is a true wonder of biology. As the decibel level increases, our ears automatically compress the sound to prevent long term hearing damage (otherwise the first jackhammer drill you heard at 120 dB on the street passing by would have left you permanently deaf). For a true revolution in digital, we have to throw away linear PCM and start over, paying close attention to how nonlinear human hearing actually works, focusing on the region we are most sensitive and not wasting bits where we are deaf (e.g., 40 kHZ!). But I don‘t hold out hope that this will happen in my lifetime.
 

rando

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More grows in the forest than a mighty Oak.
Which hoves most prominently into view.
Miniscule in contrast to what lies below.
Lost under the surface communicating.
Everything is joined at that level.
Below any tread upon strata.
As well above.
 
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