DS Audio Grand Master Extreme

[TLi]

DS Audio Grand Master optical cartridge has been my number 1 cartridge for some time. It has a smooth sound and provides a lot of details, The bass is firm and defined. Although there are a few other good MC cartridges which I rotate to use, the time I spent with Grand Master is always the longest. DS Audio now produces a better version of it called Grand Master Extreme. The main difference is the one piece diamond cantilever and stylus. Without a glued joint between cantilever and stylus, the transmission of signal from record groove to cartridge motor is enhanced. The result should be better.

I get my Grand Master Extreme today. It was mounted up and listened. Playing the same piece of music using Grand Master before switching to Grand Master Extreme, the difference is obvious. GM Extreme has much higher resolution. Everything is just more clear. The basic sonic presentation is the same as GM but GM Extreme shows a better picture. Imaging is improved, every aspect that I like about GM just get even better. It is amazing . Anyone using Grand Master now will have no choice but to upgrade to GM Extreme. It is really good.

 

[jbrrp1]

Dang! Now that is cool to see! I'd love to hear it!

 

[gds7368]

Is there an upgrade path ... other than selling my Grand Master cartridge and then buying the GM Extreme?

 

[TLi]

Is there an upgrade path ... other than selling my Grand Master cartridge and then buying the GM Extreme?

There was a trade-in discount to buy Grand Master Extreme, but I decided to keep the original GM and buy Extreme as an extra cartridge. I still got a good price. It seemed a safer option at the time since there was no reference for Extreme, no one had listened to it before.

Now having tried the Extreme, there is really no need to keep the GM. I shall keep it as a reserve.

 

[PSAF]

Thanks for posting, incredible looking stylus and cantilever, my W3 is at me dealer just need to find time to go get it

 

[Zeotrope]

Very cool tech! What is the cantilever and stylus made of, looks like acrylic?

 

[Young Skywalker]

Very cool tech! What is the cantilever and stylus made of, looks like acrylic?

Lab-grown diamond.

 

[Alrainbow]

Wow how cool is this tech I heard a few vinyl setups at a few audio shows I have to say dr vinyl room at axpona was very good analog and if I did not know it was Ds audio wound not have guessed it was.
good vinyl sound.
may I ask why a diamond ? I’m curious to why
is it stiffness or weight or both very high tech

 

[BR549]

I heard the Grandmaster EX in my room and on my table, etc. Consequently, I have one on order (and had told myself prior to the listening session that there was no way I would upgrade from the Grandmaster). Huge jump in sound quality in every way, but really just takes the vinyl rig where I want it to be - more about the music than the cartridge, etc.

 

[TLi]

I heard the Grandmaster EX in my room and on my table, etc. Consequently, I have one on order (and had told myself prior to the listening session that there was no way I would upgrade from the Grandmaster). Huge jump in sound quality in every way, but really just takes the vinyl rig where I want it to be - more about the music than the cartridge, etc.

It is quite amusing, isn't it?

The jump in performance is so obvious. Once you listen to it, there is no choice but to upgrade to Extreme.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Huge jump in sound quality in every way

Not to be annoying, which I'm sure this question unavoidably is, but how can this be? Isn't this merely an incremental evolution of the same cartridge?

Can you describe how this new version of the cartridge improved the sound quality to your ears?

Thank you!

 

[TLi]

Not to be annoying, which I'm sure this question unavoidably is, but how can this be? Isn't this merely an incremental evolution of the same cartridge?

Can you describe how this new version of the cartridge improved the sound quality to your ears?

Thank you!

It is better for BR549 to answer, but I had the same experience when I tried GM Extreme at home.

The first thing that struck me was the obvious enhancement in resolution. Everything is just a little more clear. I heard the breathing sound and saliva sound in a vocal which was not there with Grand Master. With more details presented, nearly every HiFi parameters got better.

In Munich show, I had a word with Aki san, the designer of DS Audio. He was also surprised with the jump in performance. We knew it was going to be better but didn't expect the margin was this wide.

As far as I'm aware, all cartridges use epoxy resin to joint stylus tip to cantilever. The hardness of epoxy is no comparison to that of diamond. Any elasticity at the joint is going to reduce vibrational signal going to cartridge motor. In the past, there is no way for us to know how much information is lost. Now we know the loss is significant.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not to be annoying, which I'm sure this question unavoidably is, but how can this be? Isn't this merely an incremental evolution of the same cartridge?

Can you describe how this new version of the cartridge improved the sound quality to your ears?

Thank you!

i own the Audio Technica MC-2022. it has the same conceptual design unified cantilever and stylus as this new DS Audio Extreme. there is a definite next level aspect to things with this cartridge.

if you take what the previous DS Audio top of line was doing and add that feature, i can easily relate to what is being said. i'm not saying that the Audio Technica is equivalent to this or not. only this design change is a change in multiple orders of magnitude.

not evolution; revolutionary. a new approach.

 

[Another Johnson]

I did an audition of the DS range up to what was identified as a $60k+ cartridge and preamp. I don’t know the model.

The turntables were Brinkman. I don’t remember the arms.

I was in the store to buy a Lyra Etna Lambda, and had some time to kill. I was impressed by the staff and their skills. Good setups, good demos.

In any event, I’m a vinyl aficionado and have been since vinyl replaced lacquers. I’ve been spinning records for about 66 years dating back to my grandparents’ console and 10” shellacs from the old country.

With that said, I enjoyed the demos and the differences as you stepped down from the $60k level were clear. It all sound like credibly audiophile level technology.

But when I got home and played the same recordings on my mid spec LP12 with Ittok and Lyra Kleos, I preferred mine. Later, after I’d mounted and worn in the Etna Lambda on my high spec LP12 and Ekos SE, I STRONGLY preferred my system.

FWIW, both the demos and my home system were with ARC electronics. My speakers were Wilson Sasha DAWs, and I think theirs were high end Vandersteens. My room was larger. I don’t recall their interconnects. Mine are AQ Thunderbird Zeros, Transparent Ref level, and Linn Black.

In any event, I liked the demo and was impressed by the technology … but DS has not moved onto my bucket list.

 

[Johan K]

I did an audition of the DS range up to what was identified as a $60k+ cartridge and preamp. I don’t know the model.

The turntables were Brinkman. I don’t remember the arms.

I was in the store to buy a Lyra Etna Lambda, and had some time to kill. I was impressed by the staff and their skills. Good setups, good demos.

In any event, I’m a vinyl aficionado and have been since vinyl replaced lacquers. I’ve been spinning records for about 66 years dating back to my grandparents’ console and 10” shellacs from the old country.

With that said, I enjoyed the demos and the differences as you stepped down from the $60k level were clear. It all sound like credibly audiophile level technology.

But when I got home and played the same recordings on my mid spec LP12 with Ittok and Lyra Kleos, I preferred mine. Later, after I’d mounted and worn in the Etna Lambda on my high spec LP12 and Ekos SE, I STRONGLY preferred my system.

FWIW, both the demos and my home system were with ARC electronics. My speakers were Wilson Sasha DAWs, and I think theirs were high end Vandersteens. My room was larger. I don’t recall their interconnects. Mine are AQ Thunderbird Zeros, Transparent Ref level, and Linn Black.

In any event, I liked the demo and was impressed by the technology … but DS has not moved onto my bucket list.

Hi there Another Johnson,

Cool to read your story, and how you enjoyed the demos, but then prefered your own system more despite the (I guess) price diffrences.

Just because there is a super expensive cartridge in a system doesn’t mean a lesser expensive system can’t sound better. I always hold for how well you can match your equipment together. Obviously your Etna / LP12 / Ekos SE was a much better match together with the rest of your system and room-setup, compared to the demo-setup.

However…
I agree with what you said, that DS-Audio’s cartridges are very nice, and sound very very good, and have an amazing technology, but has not find the way into my system either… not yet anyway.

/ Jk

 

[Another Johnson]

Hi there Another Johnson,

Cool to read your story, and how you enjoyed the demos, but then prefered your own system more despite the (I guess) price diffrences.

Just because there is a super expensive cartridge in a system doesn’t mean a lesser expensive system can’t sound better. I always hold for how well you can match your equipment together. Obviously your Etna / LP12 / Ekos SE was a much better match together with the rest of your system and room-setup, compared to the demo-setup.

However…
I agree with what you said, that DS-Audio’s cartridges are very nice, and sound very very good, and have an amazing technology, but has not find the way into my system either… not yet anyway.

/ Jk

The necessary investment in their preamp will be a factor for many buyers because it is not compatible with other cartridges. So … there are a lot of options if you’re planning on a $45k phono preamp spend. But once you’ve bought in, the only cartridges that you can try are theirs.

As I listened to both the demos and the sales pitch about what it was doing better than a conventional system, I was scratching my head a bit. The demos were very good, but my system does not exhibit the flaws that the DS system supposedly improves on.

When I got home and listened within four hours of the demo, even my very modest mid spec/vintage rig (which had not been prepped for a new cartridge) was easily competitive. Admittedly that deck was recently tuned up by Thomas O’Keefe and it sounds better than a lot of other options I’ve heard.

DS sounds to me like a solution looking for a problem. It would be cool to have one as a conversation piece over cocktails. There are a lot of poorly set up TTs out there. A dealer set up DS might be a huge step up for many.

 

[Ron Resnick]

But when I got home and played the same recordings on my mid spec LP12 with Ittok and Lyra Kleos, I preferred mine. Later, after I’d mounted and worn in the Etna Lambda on my high spec LP12 and Ekos SE, I STRONGLY preferred my system.

FWIW, both the demos and my home system were with ARC electronics. My speakers were Wilson Sasha DAWs, and I think theirs were high end Vandersteens. My room was larger. I don’t recall their interconnects. Mine are AQ Thunderbird Zeros, Transparent Ref level, and Linn Black.

In any event, I liked the demo and was impressed by the technology … but DS has not moved onto my bucket list.

Thank you for this report. Would you please tell us in detail in sonic terms the reasons you preferred your moving coils to the DS? (Of course different systems, different speakers, etc., but please do the best you can do.)

 

[Another Johnson]

Thank you for this report. Would you please tell us in detail in sonic terms the reasons you preferred your moving coils to the DS? (Of course different systems, different speakers, etc., but please do the best you can do.)

I’m not a “reviewer” and since it’s been over a month since the audition, it would be quite bold of me to pontificate on specifics. With that said, I wrote on another forum at the time that I had the sensation of streaming DSD, which I like … but in a direct shootout in my system, vinyl generally beats this.

The dealer made a major deal out of “noise floor” improvements. The DS noise floor was excellent … but so is mine.

The DS cartridge is “optical,” but it turns out that the optical sensor is in the cartridge motor, not in the data pickup (stylus). They are using conventional styli. You have all the alignment and set up issues with DS as you have in a conventional system. In fact, the set up specialist remarked off hand “I would rather set up a conventional cartridge. It is easier to see what you’re doing.”

There was a sweetness to the demos that some might be drawn to. Who knows if this is due to the cartridge or the equalization.

In my system I am impressed by the wonderful ability of either TT to resolve layers and present a holographic image. The imaging of the $60k DS set up was good too, but it did not strike me as better than that presented by my vintage rig. It was definitely not better than my current rig. Both my LP12s do a great job of “carrying the tune.” I’m often unconsciously foot tapping, drumming, or conducting … not libation driven. Just muse driven. Maybe I’d get to that point with DS if I lived with it. But I’m not there with dCS Rossini streaming.

I think DS will delight someone with deep pockets and a good dealer to set it up IF THEIR CURRENT REFERENCE IS HI DEF STREAMING.

Someone whose reference is a current spec, well set up LP12, with mid to high spec Lyra cartridge may be less drawn to DS.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree that the DS models I have heard till the master (not heard these top 2 grand and grand extreme) have high resolution but are highly digital sounding (with the bad connotation of digital compared to vinyl, lest I dare offend the couple of digital aficionados we have left)

 

[Ron Resnick]

I’m not a “reviewer” and since it’s been over a month since the audition, it would be quite bold of me to pontificate on specifics. With that said, I wrote on another forum at the time that I had the sensation of streaming DSD, which I like … but in a direct shootout in my system, vinyl generally beats this.

The dealer made a major deal out of “noise floor” improvements. The DS noise floor was excellent … but so is mine.
There was a sweetness to the demos that some might be drawn to. Who knows if this is due to the cartridge or the equalization.

In my system I am impressed by the wonderful ability of either TT to resolve layers and present a holographic image. The imaging of the $60k DS set up was good too, but it did not strike me as better than that presented by my vintage rig. It was definitely not better than my current rig. Both my LP12s do a great job of “carrying the tune.” I’m often unconsciously foot tapping, drumming, or conducting … not libation driven. Just muse driven. Maybe I’d get to that point with DS if I lived with it. But I’m not there with dCS Rossini streaming.

I think DS will delight someone with deep pockets and a good dealer to set it up IF THEIR CURRENT REFERENCE IS HI DEF STREAMING.

Someone whose reference is a current spec, well set up LP12, with mid to high spec Lyra cartridge may be less drawn to DS.

This was great! Thank you for this explanation!