EMIA SUT's---both silver and copper 120 L

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Forgive me, Mike, if I missed something here or in some other thread, but why are you playing with SUTs now?

Have you concluded that one of your phono stages does not generate sufficient gain for one of your cartridges? Or is this purely a curiosity thing to compare the sound of gain from an SUT to the sound of a portion of the gain coming from your phono stage?

i have 4 arms, and 3 phono channels. 2 channels in my dart pre, and one in my CS Port phono. the CS Port phono's single 63db input worked fine with all my cartridges, but i was one channel short.

but my CS Port phono, in addition to it's 63db internal SUT input, has 2 more channels with 40db/47k ohm MM inputs that can each accept an SUT. so i thought about it and figured i could add one or two SUT's and maybe improve my performance along with accommodating all my arms.

https://www.csport.audio/products/products-c3eqm2-en.html

and my Etsuro Gold cartridge, the best cartridge by far that i have heard, deserves the very best phono stage i can afford.

looking at available SUT's, after doing some research, the EMIA SUT's looked like the best performing and i like their overall approach. i'd met Jeffrey and Dave and really respect their products and vibe. my only problem is lack of SUT understanding and lack of brain power to digest all the math. but i forged ahead anyway and finally am at the finish line and loving it.

i did briefly try the SUT approach with Allnic back in 2010-2011 but could not eliminate the noise and hum.

this time with the CS Port and the EMIA they are even quieter than a head amp. super quiet. and super dynamic.

so i did this as a necessity to find another phono channel and not have to add another source to my preamp or box on a shelf. i just added a wall shelf behind my rack where the SUT's sit. so my system complexity has not really changed.

does an SUT approach perform better than a fully active phono stage? not sure my experience really speaks to that. there are lots of really great phono stages i have not tried. so i can't even begin to answer that.

my guess is that the CS Port phono (i think $17k list price) + the $4500 silver EMIA SUT likely betters any $25k or under list price phono stage. certainly any that i have heard. and.......i'll guess that that combo play in the $50k league. i know Mik felt like the CS Port phono performance by itself was in that general range, if maybe different but not worse than others. and i can say that the EMIA Silver SUT just blows the doors off the standard CS Port phono performance (but also likely betters most all phono head amps with the right cartridge match.....so no knock on the CS Port standard input).

we will see if anyone else decides to try this combo......the CS Port phono is amazing, and very flexible. 3 inputs, tubes, battery powered, great 'zen' build quality, modest form factor.
 
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CKKeung

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Jun 17, 2011
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going on 5 hours in now; played large orchestral, solo piano, piano concerto, vocals, rock, and now jazz club. re-reading my earlier posts i figured i might need to pull in the reigns on my enthusiasm.

quite the opposite.

this combo continues to set new high marks in my vinyl experience. digs deeper, with less a sense of anything reproduced, and with more meat on the bones and realism than i've heard. it's a combination of the best parts of my collective experiences. yet it's seamlessness and sense of flow and suspension of disbelief is.......just........beyond.

it's sneaky explosive and the bass is just right and complimentary to the music.

on the big orchestral it soared in a more real way than i have experienced. less a 'sound' and more a place, players, and a sense of purpose. a magical rendition.

the solo piano, the 45 rpm Beethoven sonata, was so grounded and together.......purposeful and not frantic.

etc, etc, etc.....

now it's Bill Evans 'Live at the Shelly's Manne Hole'........separation and pulsing energy are remarkable. i listened to this 2 nights ago and it's at a whole different level tonight.
Hi Mike,
You are definitely a very happy man now but I wonder what you will say if you have the opportunity to pair your Ag SUT with Dave's LR Phono Corrector!
:p

Dave has just sent a demo unit to my frd Morris Ngan in HK.
Will demo it in frds' home.
Very poisonous!
:cool:
IMG-20200609-WA0014~2.jpg
IMG-20200609-WA0015~2.jpg
 

Ron Resnick

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i have 4 arms, and 3 phono channels. 2 channels in my dart pre, and one in my CS Port phono. the CS Port phono's single 63db input worked fine with all my cartridges, but i was one channel short.

but my CS Port phono, in addition to it's 63db internal SUT input, has 2 more channels with 40db/47k ohm MM inputs that can each accept an SUT. so i thought about it and figured i could add one or two SUT's and maybe improve my performance along with accommodating all my arms.

https://www.csport.audio/products/products-c3eqm2-en.html

and my Etsuro Gold cartridge, the best cartridge by far that i have heard, deserves the very best phono stage i can afford.

looking at available SUT's, after doing some research, the EMIA SUT's looked like the best performing and i like their overall approach. i'd met Jeffrey and Dave and really respect their products and vibe. my only problem is lack of SUT understanding and lack of brain power to digest all the math. but i forged ahead anyway and finally am at the finish line and loving it.

i did briefly try the SUT approach with Allnic back in 2010-2011 but could not eliminate the noise and hum.

this time with the CS Port and the EMIA they are even quieter than a head amp. super quiet. and super dynamic.

so i did this as a necessity to find another phono channel and not have to add another source to my preamp or box on a shelf. i just added a wall shelf behind my rack where the SUT's sit. so my system complexity has not really changed.

does an SUT approach perform better than a fully active phono stage? not sure my experience really speaks to that. there are lots of really great phono stages i have not tried. so i can't even begin to answer that.

my guess is that the CS Port phono (i think $17k list price) + the $4500 silver EMIA SUT likely betters any $25k or under list price phono stage. certainly any that i have heard. and.......i'll guess that that combo play in the $50k league. i know Mik felt like the CS Port phono performance by itself was in that general range, if maybe different but not worse than others. and i can say that the EMIA Silver SUT just blows the doors off the standard CS Port phono performance.

we will see if anyone else decides to try this combo......the CS Port phono is amazing, and very flexible. 3 inputs, tubes, battery powered, great 'zen' build quality, modest form factor.

Thank you, Mike, for this detailed and totally understandable explanation!
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
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Hi Mike,
You are definitely a very happy man now but I wonder what you will say if you have the opportunity to pair your Ag SUT with Dave's LR Phono Corrector!
:p

Dave has just sent a demo unit to my frd Morris Ngan in HK.
Will demo it in frds' home.
Very poisonous!
:cool:

:p these things are predictable.

even though i am thrilled with what i now hear, it will not surprise me if at some not too future moment that a demo unit like that appears in my room.

i do have a shelf spot right now occupied by the air compressor for my CS Port tt (and the spot below it with the power supply of my Saskia) which (both) could be easily moved. a digital disc transport? a different phono stage? some future MSB extra box?

obviously i've thought about these things. can't help myself.:rolleyes:

time will tell.
 

Bobvin

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I’m (sadly) ignorant of so much of these finer details of amplifying the phono ouput... but as I understand the alternate approach is a “current” amplifier(?). I thought (not sure where I came to this idea) the CSPort phono stage was of this type. But a current stage doesn’t need such things as SUT’s correct?

Mike, have you tried a current stage with the Etsuro?

Mik, if you’re watching this tread, what say you?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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I’m (sadly) ignorant of so much of these finer details of amplifying the phono ouput... but as I understand the alternate approach is a “current” amplifier(?). I thought (not sure where I came to this idea) the CSPort phono stage was of this type. But a current stage doesn’t need such things as SUT’s correct?

Mike, have you tried a current stage with the Etsuro?

Mik, if you’re watching this tread, what say you?

hi Bob,

i have not tried a 'current' stage myself with the Etsuro Gold. and i am not informed sufficiently to know the technical difference between how an SUT works and the 'current-stage' circuitry.

i can report that today i've explored the Saskia idler turntable + the EMIA Silver SUT + CS Port phono + the Etsuro Gold and it's a winning combo. i now have new Jazz references by a good margin. played many of my 45rpm Jazz reference cuts and have been gobsmacked at the deeper musical viewpoint. these are the bedrock touchstones of my years of listening. so this is quite profound.

everything i played was so involving.

jazdoc came over today to give me an adult in the room for tempering......after my apparently irrational raves above. and he 'seemed' to enjoy the contrasting musical viewpoint compared to the CS Port LFT1 with the tighter focus and tonal weight of the Saskia......but he will have to speak for himself.
 
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redandgold

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Jun 3, 2018
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Hey Mike,

one question comes into my mind because you feel so great with your choice of Etsuro cartridge: Did you never consider to use the fitting SUT from Etsuro? Did you compare the SQ of EMIA to Etsuro? I am sure by request Etsuro would offer you the perfectly matched SUTs with gold plated caps to your cart...

redandgold
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Hey Mike,

one question comes into my mind because you feel so great with your choice of Etsuro cartridge: Did you never consider to use the fitting SUT from Etsuro? Did you compare the SQ of EMIA to Etsuro? I am sure by request Etsuro would offer you the perfectly matched SUTs with gold plated caps to your cart...

redandgold

i absolutely did seriously consider acquiring the Etsuro SUT (but never did actually hear it in my system).

but after looking into the Etsuro and other SUT's i just felt that the EMIA would be my best long term way to go. everyone pretty much buys their transformers from someone else for their in house SUT's. i thought that Dave Slagle winding his own was bringing more value to the equation. and that the EMIA silver SUT would be the hot ticket based on feedback i found. i heard reports that the EMIA SUT's outperformed the Ypsilon head to head......which impressed me.....a lot (the Ypsilon Silver SUT retails for $18k).:eek: (i had no specific feedback on the EMIA silver verses the Ypsilon Silver to be clear).

another consideration was that i knew i could work with EMIA (i had met them both and my friend jazdoc had been working with Jeffrey for years with his system) and if it did not work out well i could return it. as an SUT rookie this was important. finally i felt investing in a single brand SUT would limit future ability to sell it. the EMIA would be more 'liquid' on the market.

and now i am just over the moon on this EMIA Silver SUT. and with my lack of experience this was a 'moon shot' for me to begin with just wanting another functional output for my 4th arm and now bringing a serendipitous magical leap in vinyl performance.

and i don't want to paint with a broad brush here.......i can only relate what is happening in my system. i see this as a piece in a chain, and have no idea how the EMIA works in other contexts. but when i view my investment in this product in the context of it's performance leap it's maybe the best ROI i have experienced. i'm inserting a $4500 retail item into two separate $100k vinyl front ends and it's sending them both to another level.
 
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advanced101

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The advantage of being about to work directly with Jeffrey Jackson is huge. I think he one of the few people I have talked to in this hobby that just get it.
 
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redandgold

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Jun 3, 2018
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Thank you for your quick response and happy to hear did such a home run.. yes, maybe the EMIAs maybe more flexibel to sell and have great support.

Just came into my mind the Etsuros would offer an equal performance as SUT. As you like their cartridge so much.
 
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jazdoc

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i can report that today i've explored the Saskia idler turntable + the EMIA Silver SUT + CS Port phono + the Etsuro Gold and it's a winning combo. i now have new Jazz references by a good margin. played many of my 45rpm Jazz reference cuts and have been gobsmacked at the deeper musical viewpoint. these are the bedrock touchstones of my years of listening. so this is quite profound.

everything i played was so involving.

jazdoc came over today to give me an adult in the room for tempering......after my apparently irrational raves above. and he 'seemed' to enjoy the contrasting musical viewpoint compared to the CS Port LFT1 with the tighter focus and tonal weight of the Saskia......but he will have to speak for himself.

Adult? hardly ;)

As Mike alluded, my visits to the barn are often to act as "devil's advocate" in order to temper his enthusiasm. Here the enthusiasm is entirely justified. In Mike's application, the difference between the EMIA copper and silver SUTs is quite profound. There is a greater sense of beauty and almost palpable sense of reality. Many of our reference tracks now approached the sound of great tape. One note: given the time constraints, I am not sure the cartridge set up (especially azimuth) have been optimized on the Saskia. So there may be some performance left on the table. A few tracks really stood out from yesterday's session:

1. Annie Clark's vocals on "Slow Disco" (St. Vincent "MassEducation") were spooky realistic.
2. "Insensatez" (Rosa Passos/Ron Carter "Entre Amigos") is a less than perfect digital recording but a long time reference to assess system set up. The vocals were spot on and Ron Carter's bass was better defined and more propulsive. The kick drum never sounded more realistic and visceral.
3. "Tom Cat" (Lee Morgan "Tom Cat" 45 rpm/Music Matters). This was the first track we played after switching from the copper to silver SUTs on the Saskia . You could hear the difference within 3 notes! McCoy Tyner's left hand was notably more authoritative and Blakey's cymbals more life-like. The musicians projected into the room in a more life-like manner.

Given the size, complexity and expense of Mike's system, it's hard to believe that a relatively small investment could yield such an outsized improvement, but there it is. Enjoy my friend and don't forget to invite me over soon.:)
 
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Jeffy

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Mike, I emailed Ron awhile ago, maybe 4 month ago about this very same thing. I told him I lowered the gain of my Aesthetix Io to its lowest setting and installed Dave Slagle's SUT. The difference between that combo and just using the Aesthetix alone was astonishing. You get way more dynamics and way less tube noise because now you don't have to turn the Line stage volume control as high. I too want to try his silver SUT as well as a CS PORT. The best Jeff.
 

Lagonda

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Mike, I emailed Ron awhile ago, maybe 4 month ago about this very same thing. I told him I lowered the gain of my Aesthetix Io to its lowest setting and installed Dave Slagle's SUT. The difference between that combo and just using the Aesthetix alone was astonishing. You get way more dynamics and way less tube noise because now you don't have to turn the Line stage volume control as high. I too want to try his silver SUT as well as a CS PORT. The best Jeff.
What is the gain of the SUT ? I have a 1/40 Bob’s Devices SUT on a 0,1 mv cartridge and could not make it work well with my Io, it’s sounds wonderful on the MM input on my SS preamp though.
 
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Lagonda

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Mike Lavigne

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Mike, I emailed Ron awhile ago, maybe 4 month ago about this very same thing. I told him I lowered the gain of my Aesthetix Io to its lowest setting and installed Dave Slagle's SUT. The difference between that combo and just using the Aesthetix alone was astonishing. You get way more dynamics and way less tube noise because now you don't have to turn the Line stage volume control as high. I too want to try his silver SUT as well as a CS PORT. The best Jeff.

it seems that the CS Port phono might be a giant killer. i'm really happy with it.

it is super low noise, very grainless, liquid, and battery powered. it uses a single tube per channel.......so it has that sense of tubes but is not at all tubey sounding. very linear and balanced sound. it compliments the space, presence and delicacy of the CS Port belt drive/air bearing/linear tracker, and the more focused and punchy Saskia model two 'uber' idler equally well. it is a serious piece of kit.

the designer/major-domo of CS Port was the head of design and ran an industrial power supply company for many years prior to starting CS Port.
 

Mike Lavigne

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another night with the EMIA Silver SUT + Saskia.......i'm in love. not sure i had the full measure of the Saskia before. there is just so much soul in this turntable. it swings so sweetly. yet it's quiet, quiet, quiet and does not gloss over anything. delicate and timbrally so beguiling.

what do you get with an 'uber' idler? you get it all. i'm seeing that much more now. it was hiding just below the surface waiting for me to fully appreciate it. the music just carries me along.......
 

spiritofmusic

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Mike, fantastic. Is that option of a Stacore under the Saskia a possibility? If ever a tt was made for the Stacore, Saskia is it. Just that continuity of slate for a start.
 

Tango

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another night with the EMIA Silver SUT + Saskia.......i'm in love. not sure i had the full measure of the Saskia before. there is just so much soul in this turntable. it swings so sweetly. yet it's quiet, quiet, quiet and does not gloss over anything. delicate and timbrally so beguiling.

what do you get with an 'uber' idler? you get it all. i'm seeing that much more now. it was hiding just below the surface waiting for me to fully appreciate it. the music just carries me along.......
That really sounds like a great tt with just varied degree of strengths and no weaknesses. Do you now use the EMIA across all your tts?
 

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