Endgame monoblock amp choice

martin778

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Oct 2, 2014
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I'm looking for my 'endgame' monoblocks (would work best with my cabling) to power big Apogees but I'm at the point of choosing by eye rather than by ears thinking there aren't many (if any) truly bad amps in the €25k used market.
Repairability and reliability are very important, speaking from experience with expensive audio gear.

I especially look for good MF/HF resolution and punchy, tight lows. I have 2 preamps available a Gryphon Zena and No.326s but will be keeping the Gryphon

What would you think about the following?

- McIntosh MC1.25kW, 'legendary' brand but seems to have a lot of strongly biased users, on both sides. Can be had way under the budget and almost new so should be hassle free
- Pass X600.8, still pretty young, shouldn't need servicing anytime soon, well reviewed
- D'Agostino M550's, 3 years old, gorgeous looks however a bit disappointing on the inside
- MSB M203, unknown serviceability, no option to listen before buying.
- Big Krells, probably all well due for a recap?

I'd rather not want to buy pure class A gear as every amp class A I've bought in the past was already crusty as a sin (caps/solder joints) and they got scorching hot.

mcintosh-mc125k.jpg
 
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christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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I'm looking for my 'endgame' monoblocks (would work best with my cabling) to power big Apogees but I'm at the point of choosing by eye rather than by ears thinking there aren't many (if any) truly bad amps in the €25k used market.
Repairability and reliability are very important, speaking from experience with expensive audio gear.

I especially look for good MF/HF resolution and punchy, tight lows. I have 2 preamps available a Gryphon Zena and No.326s but will be keeping the Gryphon

What would you think about the following?

- McIntosh MC1.25kW, 'legendary' brand but seems to have a lot of strongly biased users, on both sides. Can be had way under the budget and almost new so should be hassle free
- Pass X600.8, still pretty young, shouldn't need servicing anytime soon, well reviewed
- D'Agostino M550's, 3 years old, gorgeous looks however a bit disappointing on the inside
- MSB M203, unknown serviceability, no option to listen before buying.
- Big Krells, probably all well due for a recap?

I'd rather not want to buy pure class A gear as every amp class A I've bought in the past was already crusty as a sin (caps/solder joints) and they got scorching hot.
Congrats on the Divas :cool:
I'm a huge Apogee fan myself.
You should IMHO/IME add Lamm M1.x or M2.x add to your shortlist.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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My good mate and modded Duettas owner swears by Parasound Halo JC-1 amps. Easily trounced the Analog Domain Isis he was using previously. He's a member here, I've suggested he chips in.
 

BlueFox

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Nov 8, 2013
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I have had the Pass X600.5 amps for about the last 10 years, and have zero interest in upgrading them. Tonight, being Friday, they are cruising and I am in audio heaven.
 

rugyboogie

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May 30, 2010
163
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Vancouver, BC
I have been on the search as well. My darTZeel NHB One was my amp for many years with my Wilson Maxxs but after getting TSW Divas the dart would play oh so great but at around 80 to 83 db it would clip.:confused:
So the search was on and bought a number of amps.
The amps on hand are, Classe DR3b, dart, Wyetech Topaz and a BAT VK6200.
Bought an ML 23.5, then the ML 20.6s. Then it was a pair of Krell FPB 450Mcx. These were all good but still missed the dart, dart mono block are out of my range financially.
Member 211 suggested a Luxman M800, found one locally. This was by far my fav amp to have with the Divas. Christoph suggested the Lamms years ago but were tough to find here in Canada. That made 13 amps in my music room. Then last weekend picked up a pair Lamm M1.2.
Less than a week now but extremely happy so far.
Now I can free up some space and have some funds to play with for future gear.
Good luck on your quest.
 

martin778

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2014
63
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238
LAMM looks good but is near impossible to listen to in Europe. With second hand gear, it will most probably be a gamble with no option to listen to them before buying, I'm afraid.
ML I'd rather skip as these are getting really old now and might be very difficult to repair.
I don't have AC and the Gryphon Antileon was awful due to heat output.

Was also looking at Bryston 28b3 but it's a similar story to Mac, lots of love/hate opinions.
 

Gregm

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Mar 14, 2019
525
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France
I'm looking for my 'endgame' monoblocks (would work best with my cabling) to power big Apogees but I'm at the point of choosing by eye rather than by ears thinking there aren't many (if any) truly bad amps in the €25k used market.
Repairability and reliability are very important, speaking from experience with expensive audio gear.

I especially look for good MF/HF resolution and punchy, tight lows. I have 2 preamps available a Gryphon Zena and No.326s but will be keeping the Gryphon

(...)
I'd rather not want to buy pure class A gear as every amp class A I've bought in the past was already crusty as a sin (caps/solder joints) and they got scorching hot.
Here is where Tim's recent thread come in handy: what triggers your sonic fancy? You noted FR extension, esp high frequencies and mids.
In my case it's dynamics, extended FR, and detail -- the latter coinciding with you.
I also have experience with the original Duettas & Calipers years ago.

Given the above, my choice would be Symphonic Line as above (But: heat) or stereo to remain within your budget, FM acoustics (the small monos are the ticket -- but price??), the bigger Dartzeel (heat again). Additional choice for used: Gamut monos. They are very good and cope with 2ohm loads. These are some top contenders (offering outstanding mid & high frequency resolution & dynamics).

(BTW, if you buy new, all you need to do is inform the manufacturer of the difficult load, and they'll know what to do to keep the amps happy.)

This said the Antileon EVO is an excellent amp conforming to your criteria as well and well worth the title of end-game kit. In your case I would invest in AC instead ;) Regards
 

oeno

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2014
42
60
323
I’m the friend Marc referred to with Apogee Duetta Sigs and Parasound JC1+s. My Apogees Sigs have been completely rebuilt by Jon Oakey of Reality Audio.

I had an Analog Domain integrated on them, which was a fine match, but perhaps a bit lean. My Apogees are extremely revealing and extended, particularly in the upper frequencies. The JC1+s have been perfect at taming or calming that frequency region. They provide heft and oomph in the bass and are extremely musical throughout the FR. Timbre is rich but not too rich. The JC1+s are also very fast. Soundstage is deep and widce, but there is no image bloat.

The JC1+s are class A for the first 20-25 watts which is pretty much how I listen to them--I don't play them to 105db peaks, though I can.

Bear in mind that I am using the Jc1+s with a Rossi L2 preamp—the 300Bs really direct the sound and overall timbre.

I don’t have experience with larger, heavier pricier monoblocks so can't comment on that. It would be best of course to trial your choices in your own room….but size, weight and availability will make that difficult I imagine.
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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I have been on the search as well. My darTZeel NHB One was my amp for many years with my Wilson Maxxs but after getting TSW Divas the dart would play oh so great but at around 80 to 83 db it would clip.:confused:
So the search was on and bought a number of amps.
The amps on hand are, Classe DR3b, dart, Wyetech Topaz and a BAT VK6200.
Bought an ML 23.5, then the ML 20.6s. Then it was a pair of Krell FPB 450Mcx. These were all good but still missed the dart, dart mono block are out of my range financially.
Member 211 suggested a Luxman M800, found one locally. This was by far my fav amp to have with the Divas. Christoph suggested the Lamms years ago but were tough to find here in Canada. That made 13 amps in my music room. Then last weekend picked up a pair Lamm M1.2.
Less than a week now but extremely happy so far.
Now I can free up some space and have some funds to play with for future gear.
Good luck on your quest.
Glad you like them.
Apogee and Lamm are a great combo :cool:
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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LAMM looks good but is near impossible to listen to in Europe. With second hand gear, it will most probably be a gamble with no option to listen to them before buying, I'm afraid.
ML I'd rather skip as these are getting really old now and might be very difficult to repair.
I don't have AC and the Gryphon Antileon was awful due to heat output.

Was also looking at Bryston 28b3 but it's a similar story to Mac, lots of love/hate opinions.
Where are you located?
Francisco @microstrip has a pair of M1.2 for sale and you could listen to my M1.1 driving Apogee Studio Grands
 

dan31

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Jul 22, 2010
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I would lean to the Parasound JC-1. Great user experiences and the just work. Still in production and a solid company.
 

martin778

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Oct 2, 2014
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How good are the JC1+? I'm buying used so there is a fair bit of budget available.
I'm located in western Europe but I check Audio Markt in Germany daily.

Such a tough call with Class A room heaters, most sound amazing (Antileon) but are just so impractical in a living room. Sadly we can't install AC here due to how the house is laid out and it's all concrete, brick and mortar.
 

Solypsa

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Jun 7, 2017
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Can you try / demo a pro amp to hear? There are many, but from what I hear the Powersoft and the MC2 Studio line would be the ones to try...

Yes I know they are cheap compared to large 'end game' amps, and it is a long shot. On the plus side driving 2 ohm loads is a given for these 'better' pro amps...
 

oeno

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Jun 7, 2014
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How good are the JC1+? I'm buying used so there is a fair bit of budget available.
I'm located in western Europe but I check Audio Markt in Germany daily.

Such a tough call with Class A room heaters, most sound amazing (Antileon) but are just so impractical in a living room. Sadly we can't install AC here due to how the house is laid out and it's all concrete, brick and mortar.
Without having directly compared them to Gryphons and Lamms, I can't say. But they are a great match with my Apogee Duettas matched with the Rossi L2 preamp.

As for heat, they don't produce that much, but in my room there is ample space around them.
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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Can you try / demo a pro amp to hear? There are many, but from what I hear the Powersoft and the MC2 Studio line would be the ones to try...

Yes I know they are cheap compared to large 'end game' amps, and it is a long shot. On the plus side driving 2 ohm loads is a given for these 'better' pro amps...
The Divas are not 2 ohms, they are 3.4 Ohm minimum...
Despite what people think about Apogees, they are rather easy to drive as they are a almost pure resistive load (= linear impedance).

My Apogee Studio Grands are probably the easiest to drive Apogee with a linear 6 Ohm load over the whole frequency band.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
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Where are you located?
Francisco @microstrip has a pair of M1.2 for sale and you could listen to my M1.1 driving Apogee Studio Grands

And, if you wanted more power than the M1.1/M1.2 there is the M2.2 which is class A/B and very similar sound-wise to the M1.2. M2.2 = 220W into 8 and 4 Ohms, 440 Watts into 2 Ohms, 660 W into 1 Ohm.
 

martin778

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2014
63
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238
I suspect Lamm M2.2 could be an option indeed, they are however incredibly hard to find.
Maybe I could squeeze a pair of Accuphase A-250 within the budget but I'd have to check first how hot these get, if they stay <50*C they would be a good candidate I think.
I've also been looking at the Mac 1.25kW's but opinions vary a lot.
 

gleeds

Industry Expert
May 29, 2018
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I'll go out on a limb here to save you serious money and get you killer sound at the same time. The Sanders Magtech monos will generate prodigious power into any load, even less than 2ohms. God knows your Apogees will challenge almost any amplifier. The patented power supply in the Magtech is a marvel of technology for keeping things cool and calm when the speaker loads get demanding. The amplifiers run extremely cool to the touch, draw very little power, and as a bonus are relatively compact. They will sound absolutely stunning paired with your Apogees. In bridged mode, the amplifiers are, of course, balanced and therefore will mate perfectly with your Gryphon pre-amplifier.

I have extensive professional experience with these amplifiers so feel free to DM me if you want more info. Or better yet, call Roger Sanders directly at Sanders Sound Systems. You will find him personable and a fountain of knowledge insofar as powering demanding loads like Apogees, planars, and his own electrostats.

Best of luck!
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Where are you located?
Francisco @microstrip has a pair of M1.2 for sale and you could listen to my M1.1 driving Apogee Studio Grands


I will only sell it in EC with the matching preamplfier, the L2REF. Several people were have shown interest in the amplifiers, but I will not separate.
 
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