Engineering warmth, palpability, and dimensionality of CD (copy)

[caesar]

Warmth, palpability, and dimensionality are words used to describe analog. Hard and flat were words used to describe the cd. The recent apodizing filters in some cd players like the Ayre have taken out a lot of the hardnesss.

Yet recently, there has been a few cd players that have stepped out ahead of the pack. Meridian has great space around the instruments, much better than Ayre Dac and C5 mp, to my ears. The dCS Debussy Dac does something similar. It adds a lot of dimensionality to the CD while pulling a lot of information off the disk. The 4 piece stack dCS Scarlatti, with its natural presentation, completely eliminates any desire for analog altogether to me, but unfortunately I can't afford it. I do hope the technology is reverse engineered by others and brought to more affordable pieces of gear.


So who else doing this? And what are they doing?

 

[microstrip]

Warmth, palpability, and dimensionality are words used to describe analog. Hard and flat were words used to describe the cd.

Caesar,
I disagree with these terms. I have heard warmth, palpability, and dimensionality from CD and I have LPs that are hard and flat.
Your sentence will send us in a futile discussion between supporters of both camps.
The real differences are much more difficult to describe. IMHO, immediacy, spaciousness and listener envelopment are perhaps terms more suitable to describe the differences.

 

[mep]

Microstrip-you are probably right that this thread will quickly devolve into another analog/digital food fight. The point that Caesar is trying to make (I think) is that today's best digital isn't your grandfather's digital and he likes what he hears from the best. Unfortunately, Caesar like most of us can't afford "the best" and he wants to know if anyone is building gear at a reasonable price that has the magic he is hearing from the high-priced spread. So, let's keep the conversation there and maybe we can avoid the food fight.

 

[flez007]

I am getting as most recorded tapes as I can...

 

[caesar]

Microstrip-you are probably right that this thread will quickly devolve into another analog/digital food fight. The point that Caesar is trying to make (I think) is that today's best digital isn't your grandfather's digital and he likes what he hears from the best. Unfortunately, Caesar like most of us can't afford "the best" and he wants to know if anyone is building gear at a reasonable price that has the magic he is hearing from the high-priced spread. So, let's keep the conversation there and maybe we can avoid the food fight.

Microstrip and Mep,

Thanks for clarifying my statements. You guys are correct - I am not after another thread that looks at differences between the 2 media, which frequently turns into the Royal Rumble. I know some people love to drive SUVs while others only drive sports sedans. I happen to enjoy sports sedans more, but I don't find fault with my friends who drive the SUV. I am fine with whatever one chooses to get to their desired destination while satisfying their soul.

To stay with this analogy, we now have sports SUVs and crossovers which have great handling and sportiness along with all wheel drive. Coming back to audio, other than the Scarlatti, which I believe is in a different world, we have seem some expensive but excellent digital gear come along in the last 2-3 years, and I want to know what is going on with it.

 

[fas42]

The CD replay process is such that it is much more susceptible to subtle interference effects than LP replay that distort the tonal quality, in the ways that give rise to the terms typically mentioned: hard, flat, mechanical, two dimensional, digititis. It is harder to eliminate these weaknesses in CD components, hence the rise of very expensive gear aiming to do the job.

The other method is to have someone knowledgeable and competent modify a player of decent engineering build, to minimise these problem areas. Quite a number of people on various forums have followed this route and have achieved, from their remarks, quite excellent results. This to me seems a perfectly legitimate method of achieving good digital sound, and if done intelligently, after some diligent research about the people doing the mods, should be a better value for money approach than buying an expensive new high performance player.

This is not a promo for TUC, by the way ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

Warmth, palpability, and dimensionality are words used to describe analog. Hard and flat were words used to describe the cd. The recent apodizing filters in some cd players like the Ayre have taken out a lot of the hardnesss.

Yet recently, there has been a few cd players that have stepped out ahead of the pack. Meridian has great space around the instruments, much better than Ayre Dac and C5 mp, to my ears. The dCS Debussy Dac does something similar. It adds a lot of dimensionality to the CD while pulling a lot of information off the disk. The 4 piece stack dCS Scarlatti, with its natural presentation, completely eliminates any desire for analog altogether to me, but unfortunately I can't afford it. I do hope the technology is reverse engineered by others and brought to more affordable pieces of gear.


So who else doing this? And what are they doing?

EERA is. Problem is that they are not sayin'. All I know is what's on the spec sheet. The Tentation is so good it made me procrastinate in setting up my turntable for almost 3 months.

My analog rig consists of a TW Acoustic AC-3, with 2 Graham Phantom B-44s, Graham IC-70s and currently mounted are a Koetsu Jade Platinum and a Dynavector XV-1t through a 47 Labs Chooser into a Lamm LP2 phonostage. Given the price of the Koetsu Jade on Needle Doctor which for reasons I don't know doubled in price in 3 years. The player costs less than this one cart of mine.

It took a serious alignment and tuning effort past my capabilities to make my rig pull ahead again. Fortunately one of if not our country's top analog set up guy lives a hop, skip and a jump away.

I took up the distribution rights for EERA. Zees vepons could not fall into zee wrong hands! That's my one and only disclaimer folks. In any case you guys aren't in my territory so technically I'm safe right?

 

[mullard88]

I had the Eera Tentation in my system the last five days. Two traits that microstrip suggested, spaciousness and listener envelopment immediately comes to my mind.

The Eera Tentation is a single piece cd player. If a transport/dac is preferred, then I suggest the 47 lab flatfish/Berkeley Alpha dac combination. Pricewise, this combination would be in the same neighborhood as the Eera Tentation.

In my experience with digital audio, MIT Oracle interconnects, and MIT Oracle AC2 power cords are a great help in making the system easier on the ears. Another thing I do is to use two two linestages or preamps or a combination of the two linked in series (cd player feeding linestage or preamp, then the linestage or preamp feeding another linestage linestage or preamp, then power amp) also improves the sound of digital.

 

[fas42]

This is getting interesting, Jack. Yours was the first reference to the EERA I have come across, alerting me to the brand. Reading between the lines of some of the stuff written so far about the player, the designer has in fact adopted exactly the right attitude to solving the "problems" of CD replay, which is to focus on finding the weaknesses which add distortion to the sound, and eliminating or minimising them one by one. He is essentially working like the competent modder I mentioned in my earlier post, only pushing it somewhat further than most.

The key ingredients are pretty straightforward, the DAC chip is a standard off the shelf Cirrus Logic unit. A lot of work has gone into reducing vibration where it counts, meaning the power supply is in much better shape. Key shielding has been introduced where it makes a difference, and he has made sure the output stage is very robust, that it can reject interference better than most. All these little steps all add up, giving the analogue signal a better chance of getting cleanly to the outside world.

I came across your comments in the AudioCircle forum, where you generally give the beast a thumbs up. Though, you say it still won't handle a really rough disc cleanly, has that improved with time? I also note in the 6moons write up, the comment that recordings with very strong dynamics and transients didn't show up so well, is that also the case for you, noting that the reviewer in the other case was looking at a lesser model?

Frank

 

[JackD201]

Hi Frank,

As I said at AC, my Emmlabs stack has more punch than the Tentation but the Tentation isn't exactly a slouch. Come to think of it dynamically handicapped CD players, regardless of price, are more the exception rather than the rule. The things that I don't like about redbook playback lay elsewhere. To be precise, a lack of dimensionality and some rough transients here and there. Boy, how can I put this? Maybe so this doesn't go the wrong direction I should make some things crystal. I am a music junkie first, format evangelist last. Actually I'm not even that. I have 192, 320 and AAC on my drive, I've not bothered to rip my CDs into lossless, when I want to hear a CD, just like an LP I give it a wipe and pop it in a player. I'm heavily invested in my music collection and the stuff I play it on. The mp3s and AACs are for instant gratification, if I like the music enough I go looking for the CD, SACD, or LP. Like I said I am a music junkie so I'll take whatever form it comes in and just enjoy it. I still like looking for new artists and save for very few exceptions, most of which I don't care for, LPs serve me for acts that pressed records until the early 90s. Time seems to fly doesn't it? There's two decades worth of music available only on CD. So even if I am passionate about LP collecting and playback, I've been chasing good CD sound for the same number of decades.

My list of players and DACs is a long one. To give you an idea these are what I have right now aside from the Tentation and DVD/BD players.

Bel Canto 1.5
47 Labs Shigaraki Transport and DAC
Theta Pearl and Pro Prime
Levinson 360S
Accuphase DP78
Emmlabs CDSD and 2 DCC2 SEs (don't ask why I have two of them, it's a long story anyway one is my old one factory upgraded, the other an SE)
Tascam CDR2000 ( a professional unit outlasted by the commercial ones, who would have thunk it? )
2 seemingly unbreakable Pioneer CDJ 500s

The emms replaced a Wadia 581, which in turn displaced an Audio Aero which I had on extended audition. Second system players included CAL Audios, Audio Analogs, an Arcam CD92 (ring DAC) and a MF X-24k which in hindsight, I should have kept. That's just what I can remember or was at least memorable.

Whew.

So clearly I am not anti-digital. I'm still trying hot darn it! 20 years worth of music. 20 YEARS!!!!!!!

All I'm saying is when it comes to dimensionality and the lack of nasties mentioned, this player has the most of the former and the least of the latter that I have heard in my own systems. My rant about the lack of functionality in terms of not being able to play SACDs and not having a digital input for my computer or airport express stung both Didier and Albert but hey, it doesn't have it, what can I do? Maybe it'll make Didier put an input the next generation player. My SACD library is tiny so that isn't an issue. I stand by every word positive and negative but in the end it really is a player that I feel earned its rack space. Maybe the reason it can do what it does is because it was optimized for just one format. I don't really know but it's a possibility. A dying format at that. Oh, the irony.

I have on hand the DL2, smooth and spacious like the Tentation (2 models up) but less punch too. I'll go look at 6moons again and see what Mr. and Mrs. Henk wrote. I just scanned through it before.

 

[fas42]

a lack of dimensionality and some rough transients

... lack of nasties

Yep, that's the giveaway, there are problems still there to be sorted out. As I have said before digital is a hard taskmaster, and it is a bit of an all or nothing thing getting it right. The frustration of it almost being there but not quite together is truly painful.

When you tried that experiment was it with the EERA? That little exercise we went through was to try and get you to hear what was possible, but if the player was dumbing down the sound to any degree then it didn't have much of a hope getting a positive result; A CAL player was the worst offender in this regard that I've heard. Interestingly, no-one responded when I invited comments from others who possibly tried bits of what I mentioned. Either people were perfectly satisfied with their systems, scared of blowing it up, bored with people even talking about such things, certain that it was all a load of rubbish and would make no difference, or just plain lazy. I wonder ...

A dying format at that.

Not really. Digital is digital, it is just information stored in a certain format, on a particular medium. A computer program is same whether it's in memory, on a hard disk, a USB stick or streamed from the internet. What makes CD players more messy is that all the electronics are in one box, interference, etc, rears its ugly head; when you separate out those bits then you solve some problems and introduce other new ones.

My experience is that one should start with a player with maximum punch and detail resolution. It may be nauseating to listen to, but it means that nothing has been discarded, all the "micro detail", as people call it, is still there but badly tangled -- the trick is to unravel it properly. The shock when you first hear a CD which before was a chaotic, choked disaster, an OTT mess with no hope of redemption, suddenly emerges with huge soundstage, dimensions going as far as the eye can see, and with smoothness to match that of a baby's bum is quite something.

By the way, you're well on the way to getting that audio museum up and running ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

It was with the EERA yes.

I'll be culling my old stuff this year like I did my old integrated amps last year. It's getting unmanageable. They're all in good working condition and are still good players and DACs. They deserve to be in happy homes. Boy, resale value for digital gear is terrible, probably the worst in all of audio.

 

[garylkoh]

Were the Ken Ishikawa signature Marantz pieces ever sold in the US? I remember that the Marantz CD63 was "tweaked" by the designer for warmth, palpability and soundstage and sold as an official SKU by Marantz. They came with a nice brass "KI Signature" badge and sounded excellent. This was in the days before I bought my second CD player (the first was so horrible that it took me almost 20 years before trying another one) but we had a shoot-out at an audiophile's place in Singapore between the current Wadia of the day and the CD63KI and most of us thought that the CD63KI was "better".

 

[JackD201]

I'm not sure Gary. IIRC it gained a pretty dedicated following especially in the UK and current KI Pearls are doing well in Europe. I'm using a Marantz 8005 Pre/Pro in my HT, hence my interest in the dual hdmi (separate audio and video) matching Marantz universal player done by Ken.

 

[mullard88]

Another very satisfying digital system I have come across and acquired is the EAR Acute.

 

[muralman1]

I reject the notion, "Warmth," as a good attribute when looking for real in a system. Overall warmth is a distortion. Jane Monheit should sound naturally warm, while Lucas Niggli definitely not.

 

[mullard88]

I wonder why I can't access page 2 of this thread.

 

[muralman1]

Framk, I love your writing style. There is this:


"My experience is that one should start with a player with maximum punch and detail resolution. It may be nauseating to listen to, but it means that nothing has been discarded, all the "micro detail", as people call it, is still there but badly tangled -- the trick is to unravel it properly. The shock when you first hear a CD which before was a chaotic, choked disaster, an OTT mess with no hope of redemption, suddenly emerges with huge soundstage, dimensions going as far as the eye can see, and with smoothness to match that of a baby's bum is quite something."

Lovely, but bad advice anyway. A bad sounding CD player with, "Maximum punch and detail resolution," is a fabulous player if it is supremely enjoyably to listen to.

"It may be nauseating to listen to, but it means that nothing has been discarded, all the "micro detail", as people call it, is still there but badly tangled

You rescued your skewer out of the fire with, "-- the trick is to unravel it properly." Bingo, Frank!

 

[fas42]

Thanks, Vince, I try my best! ...

Frank

 

[amirm]

I wonder why I can't access page 2 of this thread.

It is a bug in our software that pops up once in a while. I put in a work-around. I am hoping all is well now.