"Exclusive" find

[morricab]

Yes, the motor control system can make all the difference - nowadays skilled designers can easily smooth the torque non uniformity shown in the picture you show from the GT 2000 literature. Anyway the debate on turntable motors is mostly a religious one - the first big split is between feedback and non feedback types. As far as I remember direct drive turntables always relied on feedback.

I think some people still prefer the belt turntables because it is one more parameter to tune their system - they appreciate picking the best sounding belt and stretching it to the optimum point.

IMHO the most interesting point will be your choice of plinth materials and build technique - I gave up on my project of the Garrard 401 plinth also because there were too many alternatives and picking one would need a lot of research and time.

I don’t agree that a skilled designer can overcome a motor that has torque linearity issues. All DD , unless using a super massive platter, needs speed control in the form of a feedback loop. The best DD I have heard combined non-standard control (like JVCs bi-directional servo or Kenwood’s nested loops of different responsiveness) with relatively heavy platters. The typical motion control approach just using an optical encoder Doesn’t seem to be quite good enough to be inaudible. I have no info about how Pioneer regulates this superb motor but since it was so praised back in the day they must have done something right.

 

[morricab]

Hi Morricab

You may be correct as it sounds like I may have misread what my Japanese mate told me years ago. Looks like the P10 may have a trickle down spec P3 type motor used with the PL-70 controls and casting.

as you can see below the specs are different with the motor's.

P3 specs

Rotational frequency precision	0.001%
Rotation unevenness	0.003% (WRMS, the FG method) 0.015% (WRMS, the Japanese-Industrial-Standard record method)
S/N	70dB(JIS) 78dB(DIN-B)
Starting torque	10kg-cm
Opposite load characteristics	With no rotational frequency transition (arm 1,000 duty) to 1.5kg of stylus forces
Startup property	0.3 second (33 1/3rpm o'clock)

.
P10 specs

Rotational frequency precision	0.002%
Rotation unevenness	0.007% (WRMS, the FG method) 0.015% (WRMS, the Japanese-Industrial-Standard record method)
S/N	78dB(DIN-B)
Starting torque	3kg-cm
Opposite load characteristics	With no rotational frequency transition to 540g of stylus forces
Startup property	0.9 second

The tonearms were very similar on each table, in fact the arm wands I used to interchange them as they were the almost identical on the S wand and were the same with the straight wand.

Although the P10 start / stop is fast - the P3 is absolute lightening in the way it starts and stops - faster than the SP10mk3 as well. Ultimately I sold the P10's as they just were not getting enough use with the P3 and SP10mk3 as the main spinners.

As I found with the SP10mk3, the ability to put a modern tonearm onto it is a godsend as my Thales Simplicity 2 arm is a lot better than any Technics arm and has brought the table up several levels. With the integrated plinth of the P3 - impossible to do unless you want to try out the Audiocraft tonearm which had a drop in adaptor. the P3 tonearm is probably the only weakness in the design when you compare to today's tonearms

to build a plinth with the tonearm of your choice makes this a very worthwhile project if you can get the right plinth design.

keep us informed with photo's.

cheers

THanks for the followup. It is interesting that the specs are somewhat different because the pictures look nearly identical. I wonder if it comes down to the control electronics or if the P3 is just a larger motor that doesn't show up so well from photos? Is the platter of the P3 heavier?

 

[morricab]

Sansui-XR-Q7-Brochure | Manualzz

manualzz.com

Very interesting design I stumbled across. Has a 2nd, counter-rotating platter under the first to cancel out vibrations...sounds like a very popular currently made belt drive......done 40 years earlier and of course direct drive...

 

[Direct Drive]

Very interesting design I stumbled across. Has a 2nd, counter-rotating platter under the first to cancel out vibrations...sounds like a very popular currently made belt drive......done 40 years earlier and of course direct drive..

There isn't much that wasn't done 40 years ago in turntables. All the big Japanese companies threw all their technical might, knowledge and resources including financial, behind these statement products. It wasn't a cottage industry. The difference was there was a complete undeserved and unfounded snobbery from the HiFi industry, particularly media, the UK being a leader in this.

 

[Direct Drive]

I have no info about how Pioneer regulates this superb motor but since it was so praised back in the day they must have done something right.

The green pcb is where rotation speed is monitored and fedback to the controller. Similar to Sony 's magnetic strip, Onkyo's "comb".

 

[morricab]

Technology/VRDS-NEO Mechanism | ESOTERIC COMPANY

Looking at other drive systems, it seems the best cd drives from TEAC use the same coreless motor designs...i have seen similar motors in top end cassette decks from Sony and Nakamichi (the ZX-9 was a direct drive capstan motor with same coreless design).

So, when TTs "died" for a while the Japanese kept using this technology in their cd and tape deck drives. The rest of the world was using synchronous AC or brushed DC motors coupled to the platters with rubber belts or strings...not that it doesn't work well but it is rather crude by comparison (someone was saying the AS2000, which by all accounts sounds great, is a "Flintstones" style TT).

The biggest flaw I see in many of the Japanese decks were the flimsy plinths, poor vibration damping and too lightweight platter (some inertial stability seems to help smooth out the sound even further).

 

[morricab]

The green pcb is where rotation speed is monitored and fedback to the controller. Similar to Sony 's magnetic strip, Onkyo's "comb".

I got that...what I wanted to know about was how the PLL itself is regulating based on the pulses being fedback. JVC, Sansui and Yamaha were all using (I think JVC invented it though) a bi-directional servo that was designed to minimize both over and undershoot and thus minimize "hunting". I think this is partially why my GT-2000 sounds so darn good and why the JVC TT-101 and TT-81 are still sought after motor drives.

 

[XV-1]

THanks for the followup. It is interesting that the specs are somewhat different because the pictures look nearly identical. I wonder if it comes down to the control electronics or if the P3 is just a larger motor that doesn't show up so well from photos? Is the platter of the P3 heavier?

The P3 platter is heavier, but its not as if its double the weight or anything. the entire P3 table is larger in all dimensions, but to be honest I did not spend that much time looking inside the two tables once I unpackedand set them up. One thing is for sure - these things are 40 years old and I have had ZERO issues - touch wood.
some pics below from a few years back.





some

 

[morricab]

Update: The shop I bought the EM-10 drive from has informed me that they will ship on Monday...so hopefully in a week or so I will have this new drive to play with...I will first make a simple setup to test function and how to setup the arm I plan to use and then work on a more ambitious design to get the most out of the drive. Can't wait!

 

[bb_hifi]

If you world have the below system... What Cartridge world you fit in? (I have to admit i am fond to Koetsu):
- TT: Pioneer Exclusive P3a (i have all arms, straight & S shaped)
- pre: Accuphase C-290V (incl phono module)
- amp: Yamaha MX-10000
- speakers: Yamaha NS-2000
Thx in advance!

 

[Solypsa]

Nice system! What is the highest effective mass the various arm wands offer?

 

[XV-1]

If you world have the below system... What Cartridge world you fit in? (I have to admit i am fond to Koetsu):
- TT: Pioneer Exclusive P3a (i have all arms, straight & S shaped)
- pre: Accuphase C-290V (incl phono module)
- amp: Yamaha MX-10000
- speakers: Yamaha NS-2000
Thx in advance!

My Ortofon A90 always sounded great with my P3 - straight arm of course.
Currently using a Lyra Etna which is also great.

Old skool AT25 and Technics EPC1000mk4 the P3 also sounds stunning

 

[bb_hifi]

Nice system! What is the highest effective mass the various arm wands offer?

The tonearm is EA-03 with interchangeable wands S-type or straight type, but was not able to find the effective mass anywhere yet. I have started the process of translating the manual from Japanese but based on my readings in different places it is not specified ... still I will complete the translation and come back if anything relevant

 

[bb_hifi]

My Ortofon A90 always sounded great with my P3 - straight arm of course.
Currently using a Lyra Etna which is also great.

Old skool AT25 and Technics EPC1000mk4 the P3 also sounds stunned

Thank you. Your suggestions are much appreciated.

 

[morricab]

The eagle has landed!!

 

[iaxel]

Nice village you have down there

 

[theophile]

Any updates on this thread morricab?

 

[morricab]

Any updates on this thread morricab?

I have a basic setup ready to go with a 12 inch Nottingham arm but I am waiting for the return of my Kiseki Blue cartridge to spin some tunes. Let’s see how it sounds compared to my Yamaha Gt-2000 but I am hopeful it is competitive if not better

 

[eu73]

Hello,
I am the owner of a P10, and I am looking for a way to lubrificate the spindle.
Can anyone help me?
And also... il there a way to check the wear of the thrust-pad and eventually replace it?
Thank you

 

[morricab]