First Listen: Magico Q7 Mk.II - An Unexpected New Direction for Magico
- Thread starter mauidan
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Yes quite probably so , it depends what they changed in the X over for example , in the X over design it could get worse or better it can go both ways , if you are using a new driver , the X over has to be adjusted accordingly to restore the balance
Also what they changed on the drivers if they made changes on the membranematerial alone or if they changed the motor system as well , but again a change can go both ways , higher or lower overal eff and impedance (which imo are the main culprits ).
But imo even the 100 watts JL 2 is a very powerfull amp which can handle low impedances.
Ps " In general" a system with large bassdrivers and multiple mids can end up having high eff and be easy to drive , the hardest to get proper spl s out of in comparison are low eff 2 way systems , using more drivers one can multiply the eff to a degree , thats the main reason i reckon the Q 7 has high eff.
Also what they changed on the drivers if they made changes on the membranematerial alone or if they changed the motor system as well , but again a change can go both ways , higher or lower overal eff and impedance (which imo are the main culprits ).
But imo even the 100 watts JL 2 is a very powerfull amp which can handle low impedances.
Ps " In general" a system with large bassdrivers and multiple mids can end up having high eff and be easy to drive , the hardest to get proper spl s out of in comparison are low eff 2 way systems , using more drivers one can multiply the eff to a degree , thats the main reason i reckon the Q 7 has high eff.
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I quickly read the review and it appears the mk 2 uses the same bass drivers , the same mid motors with different membrane material and a newly designed 28 mm tw (before 26 mm ) which can be crossed lower .
So at first i dont think there will be big diffs in efficiency and impedance , since the the tweeter motor does not have a large impact on overall impedance , even if the new tweeter has more eff. it has to be tuned down to the existing drivers to have a good flat overall response
Ps one part of the cost of the Q 7 -Q 7 mk 2 overhaul would be dismantling it and putting it back together , since the tweeter and mids are " back baffle mounted" , you have to take the whole speaker apart i reckon instead of taking some screws out in the baffle
So at first i dont think there will be big diffs in efficiency and impedance , since the the tweeter motor does not have a large impact on overall impedance , even if the new tweeter has more eff. it has to be tuned down to the existing drivers to have a good flat overall response
Ps one part of the cost of the Q 7 -Q 7 mk 2 overhaul would be dismantling it and putting it back together , since the tweeter and mids are " back baffle mounted" , you have to take the whole speaker apart i reckon instead of taking some screws out in the baffle
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To get back on the ringing subject .
IMO ringing is uncontrolled resonances , these occur at the frequency extremes at which a unit can be used , imo the 9,6 khz bump in the vivid giyas response is simply a bump in its FR , a loudspeakerunit isnt flat from itself , and these house characteristics will show up in the speaker which will use the unit ( i know you can tamper somewhat )
This is the one i use in my design , you see a very nice flat one to start with , no agressive break up at the extremes
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004-662000.pdf
Here is the berylium dome which i think magico uses in the S series , a bit more break up in the freq extremes starting around 20 kHz but probably inaudible
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004-664000.pdf
IMO ringing is uncontrolled resonances , these occur at the frequency extremes at which a unit can be used , imo the 9,6 khz bump in the vivid giyas response is simply a bump in its FR , a loudspeakerunit isnt flat from itself , and these house characteristics will show up in the speaker which will use the unit ( i know you can tamper somewhat )
This is the one i use in my design , you see a very nice flat one to start with , no agressive break up at the extremes
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004-662000.pdf
Here is the berylium dome which i think magico uses in the S series , a bit more break up in the freq extremes starting around 20 kHz but probably inaudible
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004-664000.pdf
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Nominal efficiency is not everything. My 15 W/channel parallel push-pull triode amps could not handle a Goldmund speaker with a nominal efficiency of 96 dB because of its large bass driver. On the other hand, they can easily drive the small Rogers LS 3/5 minimonitors with nominal efficiency of 82-83 dB, also partly due to the benign impedance characteristics of these speakers. My own speakers are 90 dB efficiency and are easily handled by my amps, but I have also auditioned De Vore minimonitors (no match for my speakers in quality) of 86 dB efficiency in my system -- the amps had no problem whatsoever driving them either, with similar sound output at the same volume settings as for my speakers (!?), and with no dynamic strain. And that was even before I had the external power supplies which have turbo-charged my amps.
Magico uses a modified unit. Here is what Alon Wolf once told me:
Our version uses our own rubber surround (as opposed to the original silk SS is using), that we designed in order to eliminate some issues these tweeters have. It is only used on our version of these tweeters. Compare our THD on the S5 vs any other speakers with SS tweeter and you will see. Next time you look at a Rockport tweeter again (or any SS tweeter), look closely at the surround, and compare with your S5. You will see the difference.
Because 10 pages about ringing tweeters has run its course!Then perhaps one may claim 100% better articulation, smoother decay with tubes)
Let us go back to topic, Q7 mkii ;-)
Ian, thanks. I just want to emphasize I was only kidding. I doubt if any of us will ever be totally satisfied, since there is always something better. However, I understand your frustration about not getting the performance from your speakers that you know they have. Once you get your power foundation solid then you know you can expect everything to work at its optimum. At that point, it will be time to upgrade one final time to the Q7 Mk2.
To come back at the Giya FR , apparently the blue trace is the Mid and tweeterresponse plotted together , so the small 9,6 kHz bump "could" be the tiny midunit break up, probably not though as its use is up until 3,5 kHz as stated by the manufacturer , units resonate all the time off course thats their purpose , but when they start to resonate on their own instead of following the signal then they are not useable anymore , actually you want to stay well before that point , and have the unit sloped down well at that point to make the unwanted resonance "inaudable" .
Thats why using multiple drivers for use at their own freq band works very well to cover the whole freq spectrum .
Higher order filters means steeper slopes (2 or 3 order) , first order filters means more gradual slopes , when for example metal cones are used it is therefore very logical to use higher order slopes
Fig.2 shows the individual responses of the HF/MF drivers (blue trace), the woofers (green), and the ports (red), the nearfield levels scaled in the ratio of the square roots of the radiating areas. The upper-frequency farfield response on the tweeter axis is superbly flat, with small peaks balanced by small dips and a slight rolloff above 20kHz. The lower-midrange unit's output rolls off steeply below the specified crossover point of 220Hz. A couple of midrange peaks are evident in the woofers' upper-frequency output, but the crossover suppresses these by 20dB or more. The minimum-motion notch in the woofers' low-frequency output lies at 29Hz, as suggested by the impedance-magnitude trace in fig.1, but is less well defined than usual for a reflex design. The output of the ports, however, shows a classic bandpass response that peaks at the same 29Hz and, commendably, contains no midrange peaks.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/vivid-audio-giya-g3-loudspeaker
Thats why using multiple drivers for use at their own freq band works very well to cover the whole freq spectrum .
Higher order filters means steeper slopes (2 or 3 order) , first order filters means more gradual slopes , when for example metal cones are used it is therefore very logical to use higher order slopes
Fig.2 shows the individual responses of the HF/MF drivers (blue trace), the woofers (green), and the ports (red), the nearfield levels scaled in the ratio of the square roots of the radiating areas. The upper-frequency farfield response on the tweeter axis is superbly flat, with small peaks balanced by small dips and a slight rolloff above 20kHz. The lower-midrange unit's output rolls off steeply below the specified crossover point of 220Hz. A couple of midrange peaks are evident in the woofers' upper-frequency output, but the crossover suppresses these by 20dB or more. The minimum-motion notch in the woofers' low-frequency output lies at 29Hz, as suggested by the impedance-magnitude trace in fig.1, but is less well defined than usual for a reflex design. The output of the ports, however, shows a classic bandpass response that peaks at the same 29Hz and, commendably, contains no midrange peaks.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/vivid-audio-giya-g3-loudspeaker
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That was me: a match made in heaven! Heard the Q7s a week later with Pass and they made beautiful music as well...but definitely...lacked "heart". And yes, I am a SS owner (Spectral 360s / 1)...so...strange indeed.
ahhh...thanks for jumping in here. I have always wanted to hear that combo after your thoughts on it. I also remember hearing from someone who had heard the big Zanden monos with the SF Aidas and was also extremely impressed.
the latest big Soulution- best bass I have heard on the M-pro. it is really the strong point of this amp.
Ian,
darTZeel. And live happily ever after
I have the stereo Dartzeel on my Q1 (I bought it from Mike L). Excellent amp, probably the only component I have owned for more than 5 years (with an upgrade in between)... On the big Magicos like Mpro or Q7Mk2, you would really get the benefit of going for the big Dartzeel mono. If money is not a problem, would be top of my list with the latest big soulution (which is much improved vs. previous generation)
On the Ultimate, I unfortunately cannot use Dartzeel, way too noisy for such a high efficiency speaker.
interesting. I've read that the dart 108's have been used with the Avantgarde Trio's to good effect.....and low noise was one reason that it was chosen. it's 1st watt is pretty good and very low noise. but you would need 3 or 4 108's for the Ultimates...right? 2 stereo amps per side?
have you actually tried the 108's with the Ultimate or measured it in some way that told you they would not work? I'm not saying you are wrong about that but I would not have expected that it would be too noisy. I would have expected it to be wonderful. I recall comparing it directly to my Found Music 2a3 amp and the 45 tube amp and the dart was quieter in that 1st watt. of course, DHT tubes are a bit noisy.
completely agree on the 458's for the big Magico's.
Mike,
The Avantgarde is less than 100 dB, the Ultimate is 115-120dB sensitivity: at this level of efficiency, any noise is unbearable. There is nearly no speaker on the market with such a high sensitivity. I don't want to imply that the Dartzeel is a noisy amp, it is not more noisy than 99% of amps on the market. But at 120dB efficiency, you need very special amps with very low noise (typically with unitary gain), such as some of the First Watt, The Siltech amp. Listen to a Dartzeel or Soulution on a normal speaker like your EA or a Magico, you hear zero noise. Listen to them on Ultimate, the noise is really annoying, in particular if you have a very silent room like mine (21dB ambient noise). I tried....
I think the 458's are currently 140,000 Swiss Franc's. but honestly I don't really know for sure. they are back ordered many months, that I know.
140,000 x 1.05 exchange rate = $147,000
I don't know about the big Solution mono's.
nope, they are about the same price. (I'd take DarTZeel over any Soulution amp though)
Stereo- the Trio is much higher than 100db efficient: 109dbs. I didn't realize the Ultimates were 115db efficient- wow.
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