Fremer says 9" arms are inherently superior?

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Interesting, and this subject is interesting too.

I sent a photograph by email to a friend last year, of a turntable with four arms.
He asked me what it was, he wasn't sure about a turntable; the four arms, like spider legs, confused him I guess. And he's a professional musician who recorded in studios and has few original lacquer of his music.

Mike Lavigne, David, Peter, Marc, Tang, and all the other analog vinyl audiophiles here @ WBF; how long are their arms? Michael Fremer's arm, how long?

If I am the Peter to whom you refer, I use the 12" SME V-12 arm on a SME 30/12 turntable which was designed to accommodate the longer arm. I spent weeks directly comparing the 9" SME V arm to the 12" SME V-12 arm using the same cartridge and turntable simply by rotating the SME armboard. I prefer the 12" arm.
 

NorthStar

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Of course you are the Peter I was referring to; there is only one of you here, not two.:b

Now with Steve that makes two who prefer a longer arm (12").

I just noticed that it's in your sig; I only read sigs occasionally out of the blue.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Interesting, and this subject is interesting too.

I sent a photograph by email to a friend last year, of a turntable with four arms.
He asked me what it was, he wasn't sure about a turntable; the four arms, like spider legs, confused him I guess. And he's a professional musician who recorded in studios and has few original lacquer of his music.

Mike Lavigne, David, Peter, Marc, Tang, and all the other analog vinyl audiophiles here @ WBF; how long are their arms? Michael Fremer's arm, how long?

You can add Chris, Paul and others to the list we all have have foot long ones Bob, you gotta ask Fremer about his ;).

david
 

NorthStar

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I would love Michael to have/take the time and share some more with us, here.
I'm not the only person interested to learn more about different arm's lengths.

Michael participated here in the past; we aren't the most polite bunch on the web.
We could look scary @ times.

When I go to the Subway I always order the foot long one.
 

Ron Resnick

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I am not on FaceBook. To which post # on this thread is Michael referring?
 

Fsonicsmith

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Jun 25, 2015
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Nice of Myles Astor to call me an idiot. He comes across as a sycophant. I would expect better of him. What I don't see is any refutation of my remarks other than my mistake about the Ypsilon being tubed. Mikey-why not explain your basis for proclaiming the inherent superiority of 9" arms rather than focusing on whether I correctly described your current uber-priced with FU money (but almost always at "accommodation pricing") gear? I didn't claim Mikey has never reviewed an SPU, I claimed he has never been much of a fan. I claimed and continue to claim that he focuses on the microcosms of audio and not the macro. I claim and continue to claim that his preoccupation with avoiding resonances at every level of playback is overblown and misguided. That's not psychoanalysis. It is simple observation of exterior behavior. Funny thing too-why is it that old fogies love FB? He can hide there and take swipes and not enter the fray where he may not fare well. That is likely why. My 80 year old mother Facebooks. My sons in their early 20's would rather be caught dead than be found on FB. Intelligent discussion and sharing of ideas does not take place on FB. Instead, it's meaningless photos and sycophancy.
 

Ron Resnick

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To which post number of yours here is Michael referring?
 

Fsonicsmith

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Jun 25, 2015
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To which post number of yours here is Michael referring?

35
It is true that I also posted a variation of the same thing said in post 35 on the AudioAsylum board under "critics".
Again, I like Mike Fremer, but he is a bit meshuggah. This has bitten him in the arse from time to time and it will not end. "This" being going out on limb that he is unable to defend.
 

Ron Resnick

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. . . And most important of all, for better or worse he is a listener who dissects, describes and rates products based upon all of the well-worn audiophile categories of performance rather than the overall gestalt of sound. Whereas Art Dudley and Herb Reichert listen for "the big picture", Mikey takes a magnifying glass to the music and gets out a set of tweezers. Let me know if I am mistaken, but I don't think Mr. Fremer has ever sung the praises of SPU's for example. Why is this relevant? Well, in my estimation 12" arms and SPU's are capable of producing incredibly intoxicating renditions of real music rather than renditions that satisfy all the audiophile blather that Mikey finds so attractive. Mr. Fremer's move from Sonus Faber Stradivari to Wilsons and from the tubed Manley Steelhead to uber-priced solid state Ypsilon is symbolic.

I see it now.

I think you should have ended your post before launching the rant about “most important of all” is that you think you listen to music differently than does Michael.

I think it is totally absurd to declare that if someone doesn’t have experience with a particular cartridge and tonearm combination you personally favor then he cares only about “blather.”

And when you launch a snarky and logically indefensible attack on the most respected analog playback component reviewer in the world it does make you look bad if you cannot bother to make certain that each of your objective statements (solid-state Ypsilon) is factually correct.

You are new to the forum and in your first post you ask us to “please be easy on [you].” It would have been nicer if you had abided by your own request for graciousness before attacking a respected reviewer because you think he doesn’t listen the way you think he should, and by declaring your personal audiophile listening preferences as objectively correct gospel.
 

Ron Resnick

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We would be extremely honored to have Michael Fremer participate here!
 

Ron Resnick

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Fsonicsmith, I agree with you that it was undignified for Myles to make the comment he made. But your last post was unworthy of you and of WBF.

Myles’ comment “It is always open season on reviewers [here]” is untrue. On WBF we call it like we see it as intellectually honestly as we can, and we have posted both criticism and great praise of professional reviewers.

The biggest fault line in that area is that I personally greatly prefer reviewers who write comparative reviews, and that is one reason I have so much respect for Michael Fremer’s reviews.

Myles, also, has a commendable history of writing comparative reviews, especially cartridge reviews.
 

KeithR

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I owe all who have participated in this thread an apology to the extent that this territory has been plowed before and perhaps I should have done a search http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?9295-Oh-no-MF-is-not-a-fan-of-12-quot-arms!
That said, I see that there is no scientifically convincing answer. I think it is safe to say that no arm design, even tangential arms, are perfect. From there, we can perhaps agree that 9" arms can be engineered to be incredibly good but so can 12" arms. I believe that Mikey is wrong to imply that the best 9" arms are inherently superior to otherwise equivalently designed 12" arms. Am I the only one to notice that Mikey is anti-resonance in every way when it comes to his choice of loudspeakers (Wilson) and electronics (solid state) and his beloved (if not outdated) Continuum Caliburn deck sports an 84 lb platter on several hundred pound plinth and stand and in that regard hales from the same camp as his engineer editor, JA, and yet he loves and champions the most resonant of all playback technologies? In that regard, he is a self-conflicted enigma. I have always noticed that while he has great ears, great writing ability, and knows a ton about table set-up, he is neither formally trained nor even demonstrates much of an innate understanding of engineering. He is prone to repeating design and engineering aspects that were told to him or that he has read pertaining to whatever he happens to be reviewing at the time. And most important of all, for better or worse he is a listener who dissects, describes and rates products based upon all of the well-worn audiophile categories of performance rather than the overall gestalt of sound. Whereas Art Dudley and Herb Reichert listen for "the big picture", Mikey takes a magnifying glass to the music and gets out a set of tweezers. Let me know if I am mistaken, but I don't think Mr. Fremer has ever sung the praises of SPU's for example. Why is this relevant? Well, in my estimation 12" arms and SPU's are capable of producing incredibly intoxicating renditions of real music rather than renditions that satisfy all the audiophile blather that Mikey finds so attractive. Mr. Fremer's move from Sonus Faber Stradivari to Wilsons and from the tubed Manley Steelhead to uber-priced solid state Ypsilon is symbolic.

Maybe he just thinks it sounds better and there isn't a grand conspiracy.

And I do think you crapping on him is silly. Disagree with the man's opinion, but don't take cheap shots on the man himself.
 

MadFloyd

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I agree with you 100%, Ron. There are so few good reviewers for that very reason and Fremer is one of the best.
 

Ron Resnick

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Except now you’re missing Don Saltzman’s and Andre Jennings’ careful and thoughtful comparative reviews.
 

microstrip

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We would be extremely honored to have Michael Fremer participate here!

+1!

And also many other reviewers I enjoy reading. Unfortunately the original post of this thread indirectly posted the opinion of another person (Michael Fremer) , without properly quoting him or posting an accessible link to his opinion. As could be foreseen, this thread evolved ignoring the facts corroborating the opinion with posts such as ( I haven't read the article (...) , I don't know the article OP is referring to (...) and now includes a unacceptable attack on Michael Fremer.

I have complained several times on the aggressive anti-reviewer attitude and posts about reviewers in this forum, as IMHO this unfriendly attitude only drives away reviewers and members from WBF. Perhaps we can re-think this subject.
 

microstrip

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(...) The biggest fault line in that area is that I personally greatly prefer reviewers who write comparative reviews, and that is one reason I have so much respect for Michael Fremer’s reviews.

Ron,

And I feel we should also respect reviews that do not include comparisons, as I prefer descriptive reviews with opinions on equipment with specif recordings ... Yes, we friendly disagree on that one...
 

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