Fremer says 9" arms are inherently superior?

Tirebiter

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Jan 10, 2018
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Bring it up with: Bob Graham, Marc Gomez, and the others who conclude that when all of the variables are considered 9" is the best overall solution especially to dynamic performance in the groove. Gomez has degrees in materials science and mechanical engineering. I don't. And you? And I do not and did not say 9" arms are "inherently superior". It's not how I talk or write.

While I am not a mechanical engineer I am an extractive metallurgical engineer who had to deal with processes...in other words, mechanisms with many variables, each having a contribution to the whole. I think you hit the essence of what many people forget to consider and that is, a tonearm is a system. Tracking error is part of the system, resonance is part of the system, mass is part of the system, inertia is part of the system...the list is seemingly endless. To pin a particular tonearm's "superiority" on less tracking error alone is folly because changing length also changes many of the factors listed above. So without data to point to, cause and effect cannot be analyzed which I believe is the case for most of us...all we have are our ears and how we interpret what we hear. I would venture to guess that individuals like Bob Graham and Marc Gomez do have data and in the end when all variables are considered, that is the reason they believe 9" to be superior.

So I guess part of what I am saying is that if we want a particular arm to sound better because we believe tracking error is the end all solution, then said arm *will* sound better. Someone else may believe that white epoxy paint provides a damping effect that an ebony wood arm cannot. And that is all fine so long as we are enjoying how the music is presented to us...

Brock
 

Fsonicsmith

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Jun 25, 2015
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I won't argue with you (because clearly it's pointless) other than to say some of your assertions are absurd particularly "finer adjustment of VTA and SRA" and your "80 years of empirical listening...." is what your psyche tells you that you need to assert to prove you are "correct". If you want "correct" get a CD player.

The above says all that needs to be said. "What your psyche tells you that you need to assert to prove that you are "correct"? Is that supposed to be a comprehensible sentence from an intelligent and rational person? He than throws in that great zinger, "if you want "correct" get a CD player" because surely anyone Mr. Fremer gets angry at must be an objectivist who insists that all CD players are equal and perfect. I truly believe the emperor has no clothes. Either that, or Mr. Fremer is typing while drunk. Someone else made the very same point; throw away the engineering talk that you don't fully comprehend and are instead merely repeating and instead talk about listening impressions. I hope you live long enough to come to the realization that you are defending your preference for a few arms with needless generalizations. You are the worst kind of elitist Mr. Fremer.
 

dan31

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Jul 22, 2010
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The above says all that needs to be said. "What your psyche tells you that you need to assert to prove that you are "correct"? Is that supposed to be a comprehensible sentence from an intelligent and rational person? He than throws in that great zinger, "if you want "correct" get a CD player" because surely anyone Mr. Fremer gets angry at must be an objectivist who insists that all CD players are equal and perfect. I truly believe the emperor has no clothes. Either that, or Mr. Fremer is typing while drunk. Someone else made the very same point; throw away the engineering talk that you don't fully comprehend and are instead merely repeating and instead talk about listening impressions. I hope you live long enough to come to the realization that you are defending your preference for a few arms with needless generalizations. You are the worst kind of elitist Mr. Fremer.

Have a drink.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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While I am not a mechanical engineer I am an extractive metallurgical engineer who had to deal with processes...in other words, mechanisms with many variables, each having a contribution to the whole. I think you hit the essence of what many people forget to consider and that is, a tonearm is a system. Tracking error is part of the system, resonance is part of the system, mass is part of the system, inertia is part of the system...the list is seemingly endless. To pin a particular tonearm's "superiority" on less tracking error alone is folly because changing length also changes many of the factors listed above. So without data to point to, cause and effect cannot be analyzed which I believe is the case for most of us...all we have are our ears and how we interpret what we hear. I would venture to guess that individuals like Bob Graham and Marc Gomez do have data and in the end when all variables are considered, that is the reason they believe 9" to be superior.

So I guess part of what I am saying is that if we want a particular arm to sound better because we believe tracking error is the end all solution, then said arm *will* sound better. Someone else may believe that white epoxy paint provides a damping effect that an ebony wood arm cannot. And that is all fine so long as we are enjoying how the music is presented to us...

Brock

If one knows the arm length is different between two arms of similar design, say the 9" SME V and the 12" SME V-12, I think he can reasonably assume that the effective mass is different and the inertia is different. The specifications may list the effective mass of each arm, though it changes depending on how far the counterweight is from the pivot point. I do not know if he can assume one are is more rigid than without knowing how the arm tube is constructed. It may have been scaled up to deal with the longer length. We do know that tracking error and anti skate are effected.

Given these unknowns, it may be beneficial to put aside the technical differences between the two arms and simply listen to each and decide which one sounds better. DDK did this with SME arms. I did also. Michael may one day directly compare the SAT arms of different lengths, though the arms themselves may be of different designs by then. Others have directly compared the different length Kuzma and Graham arms. It is not clear to me that in all cases, people universally prefer the 9" variants.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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If one knows the arm length is different between two arms of similar design, say the 9" SME V and the 12" SME V-12, I think he can reasonably assume that the effective mass is different and the inertia is different. The specifications may list the effective mass of each arm, though it changes depending on how far the counterweight is from the pivot point. I do not know if he can assume one are is more rigid than without knowing how the arm tube is constructed. It may have been scaled up to deal with the longer length. We do know that tracking error and anti skate are effected.

Given these unknowns, it may be beneficial to put aside the technical differences between the two arms and simply listen to each and decide which one sounds better. DDK did this with SME arms. I did also. Michael may one day directly compare the SAT arms of different lengths, though the arms themselves may be of different designs by then. Others have directly compared the different length Kuzma and Graham arms. It is not clear to me that in all cases, people universally prefer the 9" variants.

+1

There are numerous variables in the perception that one is going to get upon listening to any particular vinyl setup. One of the reasons that i have kept my Well Tempered Black arm for so long is that it has a bearing that is basically completely innocuous. The arm is a 10" version and has seen off many a competing arm with unipivot or gimble bearing; main reason I believe is due to the fact that another engineer...Bill Firebaugh, understood the inherent ( that word!) problems with bearings that all other arms utilize ( hence his design). My brother, actually a real Mech engineer, holds the work of Bill Firebaugh in high regard. Although he often laughs at some of the claims that have seen light in this hobby- and on this forum.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
6,129
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Here's an interesting post on Bill's 16" arm:D...NOT saying I agree with him on this concept but it is interesting to read what John Devore stated and what MF rebutted.

Linky: https://www.analogplanet.com/content/well-tempered-royale-400—-those-who-it-long
 

Tirebiter

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2018
117
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Golden CO
Given these unknowns, it may be beneficial to put aside the technical differences between the two arms and simply listen to each and decide which one sounds better. DDK did this with SME arms. I did also. Michael may one day directly compare the SAT arms of different lengths, though the arms themselves may be of different designs by then. Others have directly compared the different length Kuzma and Graham arms. It is not clear to me that in all cases, people universally prefer the 9" variants.

I would agree that there is not universal agreement on preference...and think this would be a great instance where a double blind comparison test makes sense; take all emotion and predilections out of the equation...a pure focus on how the music sounds. Decades ago I administered a blind taste test to an employee who thought Coors was p*** water and would only drink Bud...stating he could instantly identify Coors from "it's putrid smell, let alone taste." You can guess how that test turned out.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I do have a 9" Graham and the only reason it is 9" is because that was the model available. So I made a decision based on supply and demand rather than sonic advantages thus maintain an open mind, albeit one that considers lots of variables......
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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Where has Bob Graham ever said his 9” arm was better than his 10.5” & 12” Arms ?
He doesn’t even offer a 9” version of the Elite unless I’m mistaken.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Here is what Michael Fremer wrote in his review of the 12" SME 312S arm as copied from the electronic version on AnalogPlanet:

"To sum up: A 12" tonearm has some minor theoretical advantages, as well as a few disadvantages that, if not properly addressed, will probably outweigh the advantages, in my opinion. SME has adequately addressed these issues, producing, in the form of the 312S, a tonearm that has all of a 12" arm's theoretical advantages and none of its disadvantages. Whether it's worth spending the extra money for those advantages is another issue."
Read more at https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...e-amp-312s-tonearm-page-3#Gzmw3LZiIGj6Q8dI.99

It seems to me that MF thinks (as stated it is his opinion) that the 12" SME arm is not hampered by its extra length and that his conclusion would seem to infer that the 12" would have some advantage, and thus sound superior, to the 9" variant of the same arm. I find it interesting that the premise of this thread seems to imply that MF thinks the opposite. This very review counters that claim in the OP.
 

BruceD

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Dec 13, 2013
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The above says all that needs to be said. "What your psyche tells you that you need to assert to prove that you are "correct"? Is that supposed to be a comprehensible sentence from an intelligent and rational person? He than throws in that great zinger, "if you want "correct" get a CD player" because surely anyone Mr. Fremer gets angry at must be an objectivist who insists that all CD players are equal and perfect. I truly believe the emperor has no clothes. Either that, or Mr. Fremer is typing while drunk. Someone else made the very same point; throw away the engineering talk that you don't fully comprehend and are instead merely repeating and instead talk about listening impressions. I hope you live long enough to come to the realization that you are defending your preference for a few arms with needless generalizations. You are the worst kind of elitist Mr. Fremer.

Sad indeed with posts like this--insinuations of "drunk" and "elitist" the former with no factual proof --is a poor reflection on the persona of this poster--

I trust though Mr Fremer--whom I've conversed and respect does not lump the other decent folk on this Forum with these unwarranted musings.

And we wonder why respected members of the Industry choose not to indulge on conversations.

Like I said sad indeed:(

BruceD
 

Loheswaran

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Dec 19, 2014
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My wife is finding the heated debate on this topic over 12 or 9 inches being better utterly hilariou
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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My wife is finding the heated debate on this topic over 12 or 9 inches being better utterly hilariou??

+1

To get Marc Gomez qualifications correct

Background

My name is Marc Gomez, born in Barcelona (Spain) in 1972, I moved to Sweden in 1999 and am currently located in Gothenburg. I have a Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science.

I also note this on SAT Facebook page

7E6FF9A2-63A7-4902-9012-318878EA5B0B.jpeg

Maybe someone in the industry or was in Munich can explain this titling perhaps sloppy use of language “ top of the line” ?

Also it would seems MF preference for 9 inch arms predates the SAT till at least 2013, I think SAT didn’t start producing arms till 2015?

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?9295-Oh-no-MF-is-not-a-fan-of-12-quot-arms!
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Lord knows what she’d think of my 5” LOL.
 

spiritofmusic

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She might be short changed , but the music certainly isn’t.
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Yes I love my tangential arm also, but don’t say it too loud because apparently they aren’t good ....oops
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Oh $hit, really?
I wish someone would have told me before I just got transported by three lps in a row.
I think it’s time we all realised there are no absolutes in audio.
If Marc Gomez has maxxed out mechanical integrity in his 9” SAT, maybe this truly trumps any tracking error issues.
Whether this proves it’s the hands down superior approach, who knows.
There are an awful lot of ways to make an omelette, and plenty of ways to crack those eggs.
More and more I’m of the belief there is as much art as there is cold engineering/physics in the best components.
The SAT’s art is in absolutely optimising materials science to overcome tracking “issues” in the 9”.
 

carolus

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Dec 20, 2013
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Oei, oeï, oeï ......
My T-arm is (only) 5,5cm ... ipso facto, it's not part in the 9" superior Fremer club ...
But, it's very-high-end-top material: industrial double PCB layer ....
It's music, I like it ....
Karel
 

spiritofmusic

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Karel, you’re running Vic’s Terminator air arm, yes?
It’s not 5.5cm, but 5.5 inches.
 

Tango

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There are an awful lot of ways to make an omelette, and plenty of ways to crack those eggs.

Speaking of omelette, the 12” omelette turner is definitely better than the 9” one.

Tang:D
 

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