Frequency response is everything!?...

audiofull

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Mar 18, 2023
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Hello everyone.

My first post here, and I'm hoping to encounter more diverse minds and better conversational substance, and some opportunities to learn and discover new things. Honestly, this post isn't about much other than my need to vent out about those who insist there's no more to audio performance than frequency response. I'm just sick of them! They exhibit militant, cult-like behaviour whenever someone dare suggests there might be more to audio performance than frequency response. They go on a juvenile tirade calling people names and coming up with fantastical conspiracy theories about why some of us see beyond the surface, beyond measurements and graphs. For this reason I'm considering not using reddit anymore. Anyway, enjoy your day, and the music.
 
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Gregadd

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Welcome to WBf
People often cling to what they think they understand.
 
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Gregm

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Hello everyone.
Welcome at WBF!
My first post here, and I'm hoping to encounter more diverse minds and better conversational substance, and some opportunities to learn and discover new things. Honestly, this post isn't about much other than my need to vent out about those who insist there's no more to audio performance than frequency response. I'm just sick of them! They exhibit militant, cult-like behaviour whenever someone dare suggests there might be more to audio performance than frequency response. They go on a juvenile tirade calling people names and coming up with fantastical conspiracy theories about why some of us see beyond the surface, beyond measurements and graphs. For this reason I'm considering not using reddit anymore. Anyway, enjoy your day, and the music.
I understand where you're coming from, I too find this quasi-religious and contentious insistence on certain things is irksome.
OTOH, a FR measurement can be very useful, especially when one knows how it correlates with what one's hearing --
People seem to forget that the primary objective of a music system is to enjoy listening to music; not to satisfy a FR curve expectation.
Unless one has expressed listening preferences as a specific FR curve
 
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PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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The last thing I think about when listening to the Boston symphony orchestra is the frequency response that could be measured. The first thing I think about after an enjoyable evening there listening to wonderful music, is how can I get that experience or something approaching it from my system at home.

Much can be learned from the words one uses to describe what he hears.
 
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Hear Here

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this post isn't about much other than my need to vent out about those who insist there's no more to audio performance than frequency response. I'm just sick of them!
I've been around hi-fi for several decades but to be frank I've never read or heard discussion regarding frequency response as such - at least not for 2 or 3 decades.

In this day and age, all amps should be easily capable of delivering the full audible frequency range within a dB or two. If you are talking about some people’s obsession with "measurements", then I'm totally with you. I really don't care what my microphone says my audio is like by looking at a computer screen - I care solely on how much I'm enjoying the sound I hear from my speakers. The more I feel I'm listening to the live performance, the better.

Obsession with so called "room correction DSP" is often an excuse to not bother setting speakers up properly or considering the room's furnishings. The SP in DSP stands for Signal Processing and the last think your precious signal needs is more processing than is absolutely necessary. These DSPs are very complex circuits and although bass frequency response may be flattened out, the top end (that doesn't need "room correction") also has to suffer this processor if the DSP is built into a full-range amp. If I engage Dirac Live that ADJUSTS only sub 500 Hz, I distinctly notice that the top end loses some of its sparkle and goose-bump factor. This is down to the processor, so I don't engage it. Leave DSP to the AV guys or when the signal is crossed over before it goes to a bass-only amp (with DSP) and a rest-of-range amp (with no DSP)!
 
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Gregadd

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Of course frequency response is crucial in speaker/ room interface. There are many other factors. FR is one of the things rhe end user can tinker with.
Where they go astray is to us FR as a weapon against audiophiles.
 

henrich3

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Jun 7, 2022
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I can tell a lot about how much I would enjoy listening to an audio system based on how it measures in a frequency response chart. For example, I know from experience that a flat frequency response will sound weak in the low end and too bright in the high end. Harman has studied what sounds good to most listeners in a typical room, and a smooth frequency response with a low end lift and a high end roll off usually sounds best. I can set whatever target curve I want in my audio processor and I've found that my preferences are in line with what Harman recommends:

---

A quality audio system should measure well in its frequency response, because that will tell you how accurate it is at reproducing music or whatever you are listening to. Beyond house curve preferences, if you have nulls or large peaks at certain frequencies, then your music will not be reproduced accurately. That's a problem that may take acoustic treatments, DSP / room correction, or multi-subs to solve. If you haven't taken the time to measure your FR, then you really don't know what the problems are in your system. Identifying the problems is the first step to fixing them.

That said, having a good frequency response does not tell the whole story. Listening tests are ultimately what needs to be satisfied to reach one's "happy place". Frequency response charts are just a tool to help you reach that happy place.
 

Gregadd

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You had me until you mentioned Harman.
 

henrich3

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You had me until you mentioned Harman.
Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, & Todd Welti are among the most highly respected names in acoustic research. They all worked for Harman.
 

Gregadd

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I have no criticism of any of them. I judge by results not by credentials. M personal opinion
 

henrich3

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Jun 7, 2022
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I have no criticism of any of them. I judge by results not by credentials. M personal opinion
You say that you have no criticism of them, but then imply that they're not highly accomplished individuals. They are. Toole's book "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" is considered the bible of acoustic research by many. It includes studies done by Olive, Welti, and other distinguished acousticians. Anyway, no need for me to defend these gurus in the field of acoustics. You're free to your opinions...
 

Ron Resnick

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Welcome to WBF, audiofull! We are delighted that you have joined us!

Sennheiser makes great headphones! Is most of your listening headphone-based?

PS: I had no idea that Reddit even was a thing for high-end audio. I am glad you have escaped that intellectual prison!
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Hello everyone.

My first post here, and I'm hoping to encounter more diverse minds and better conversational substance, and some opportunities to learn and discover new things. Honestly, this post isn't about much other than my need to vent out about those who insist there's no more to audio performance than frequency response. I'm just sick of them! They exhibit militant, cult-like behaviour whenever someone dare suggests there might be more to audio performance than frequency response. They go on a juvenile tirade calling people names and coming up with fantastical conspiracy theories about why some of us see beyond the surface, beyond measurements and graphs. For this reason I'm considering not using reddit anymore. Anyway, enjoy your day, and the music.
welcome to WBF.

first of all, we don't listen to numbers or graphs. we enjoy the art of music, along with some sounds we might like too. some of us are more into sound, than the enjoyment and experience of musical artistry and intent, but so what? it's all good.

FR graphs can be a tool to improve things, along with other measurements, but they are simply tools to give us clues for the path to improvement, not any proof of concept. that proof is how the music makes us feel.

just like how we look at the power rating on amps, or the efficiency ratings on speakers, these can be clues to match gear, but are no substitute for listening for choosing gear.

this is just my own viewpoint, YMMV.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Just very recently, for the very first time, I started using frequency response charts for my system/listening room. I think it is an interesting tool, for a specific purpose.

I am finding it very interesting to see if I can see on the objective frequency response chart what I subjectively think I am hearing with my ears.
 

Keith_W

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Mar 31, 2012
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Welcome to WBF. I think a lot of people forget that measurements are objective. But the interpretation of measurements is subjective.

Since the Harman curve has already been mentioned, yes I agree that it most people will prefer speakers that are tuned to the Harman target. However, the Harman target would better be represented as a line with upper and lower limits indicating confidence intervals rather than a line. The failure to depict the target this way has lead to the dogmatic insistence by some people that it has to be strictly adhered to, and that minor deviations indicate a design fault. This I do not agree with.

Then there are things that we can not measure, for example soundstage width and depth. We can predict whether a particular speaker will have good spatial characteristics by doing a CEA 2034 measurement (sometimes known as Spinorama), but how that speaker actually performs in your room depends on your room and your choice of speaker placement. Again, the existence of Spinorama has lead some people to dogmatically insist that "ideal" Spinorama characteristics must be adhered to.

This does not mean I advocate abandoning measurements altogether, just because some of their proponents are militant and shrill. You should pay attention to them, and if possible you should do your own. It is a really educational experience! But in the end, we should be pragmatic about it. I am still a "subjectivist", meaning my ears are the final arbiter of what I like and what I don't. I just use "objectivist" methods to help me get there.
 

Gregadd

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Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, & Todd Welti are among the most highly respected names in acoustic research. They all worked for Harman.
Toole is often quoted here. Olive is not only quoted but posted here. I don't believe I am familiar with Welti. After year Of debatI know all about Harman.
You say that you have no criticism of them, but then imply that they're not highly accomplished individuals. They are. Toole's book "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" is considered the bible of acoustic research by many. It includes studies done by Olive, Welti, and other distinguished acousticians. Anyway, no need for me to defend these gurus in the field of acoustics. You're free to your opinions...
Thank you. I said I have no criticism of their credentials. In case of Toole and Olive I concede they are highly accomplished. I have no data on Welti. Tooles' book may be a "Bible'". I think I belong to another religion.
While I appreciate theory I judge by the sound of a component to my ears. As for opinions see my signature line. i will tolerate yours, right or wrong. Thank you for tolerating mine.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I had this debate. Harman has no proof that most people prefer anything. The best they can say is the most people in their test preferred the better measuring speaker.
 

henrich3

Active Member
Jun 7, 2022
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Tooles' book may be a "Bible'". I think I belong to another religion.
While I appreciate theory I judge by the sound of a component to my ears.
I had this debate. Harman has no proof that most people prefer anything. The best they can say is the most people in their test preferred the better measuring speaker.
In what ways do you believe that Toole et al. have it wrong about acoustics and/or psychoacoustics? What's a better approach?
 

Al M.

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Toole is often quoted here. Olive is not only quoted but posted here. I don't believe I am familiar with Welti. After year Of debatI know all about Harman.

Thank you. I said I have no criticism of their credentials. In case of Toole and Olive I concede they are highly accomplished. I have no data on Welti. Tooles' book may be a "Bible'". I think I belong to another religion.
While I appreciate theory I judge by the sound of a component to my ears. As for opinions see my signature line. i will tolerate yours, right or wrong. Thank you for tolerating mine.

Yes, it is amusing how flat-out dogmatic some "science-minded" people can be.

I say this as a scientist, so nothing against science.
 
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henrich3

Active Member
Jun 7, 2022
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Scottsdale, AZ
Yes, it is amusing how flat-out dogmatic some "science-minded" people can be.

I say this as a scientist, so nothing against science.
The OP criticized the usefulness of frequency response charts. I challenged that using scientific data & by relating my personal experience. Which of my statements was dogmatic?
 

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