Goldmund as a resting place

[Florian]

Hello everyone,

i am lucky enough to enjoy the new Mimesis 20H DAC
Just wanted to visit the Goldmund Forum here.

Best regards

Florian

 

[dkrm]

Hello everyone,

i am lucky enough to enjoy the new Mimesis 20H DAC
Just wanted to visit the Goldmund Forum here.

Best regards

Florian

Beautiful system.

 

[LL21]

Absolutely magnificent! Congratulations! I can see you are a big fan of Goldmund...I have only heard older, lesser Goldmund but remember being amazed by the lucid, natural and clear-as-a-bell treble...absolutely reference setting at that price point and age for me.

Meanwhile, your entire system is magnificent...your speakers are legendary! Possibly fewer than 25 in the world today?

Can you tell us a little bit more about the 20H...in terms of how it might compare for you relative to other major digital? Enjoy!

 

[Florian]

Absolutely magnificent! Congratulations! I can see you are a big fan of Goldmund...I have only heard older, lesser Goldmund but remember being amazed by the lucid, natural and clear-as-a-bell treble...absolutely reference setting at that price point and age for me.

Meanwhile, your entire system is magnificent...your speakers are legendary! Possibly fewer than 25 in the world today?

Can you tell us a little bit more about the 20H...in terms of how it might compare for you relative to other major digital? Enjoy!

Hello,

thanks for the kind words and sorry for the late reply.

Your question is tricky, as the 20H DAC is about 80K $ ; nothing can sound as good as 80K $.
At some point its just rather silly. Having said that, the DAC sounds very similiar to my Goldmund PH 3.8 NextGen DAC (Current Phono Flahship).
It is never harsh or strained on your ears, the sound is like clear water with no effect of any kind. It is now possible to clearly hear the environment in which the single instrument or vocal was recorded in. There are no bad recordings, you simply hear the "style" of the time the recording is made.

Before i switched my entire system (except the speakers) over to Goldmund, i had a lot of Brands in my home. Now, i have no interest in spening my time comparing equipment, that "fad" is now not important anymore, i just listen to my system and enjoy the music Like my Apogee Grands, the Goldmund equipment reduced my desire for anything else to almost zero.

 

[ashandger]

May I ask what cables you are using with your Goldmund equipment? Many thanks

 

[Florian]

May I ask what cables you are using with your Goldmund equipment? Many thanks

I use Magnan Signature and and a Swiss Cable Brand (Symo Reference)

 

[LL21]

Hi Florian,

That is fantastic feedback. How do you power the Apogee Grands...did you replace their internal subwoofer amp with Goldmund as well, or are you still using the original Krell amp that was apparently part of the original design?

Also, have you ever considered moving across to Goldmund Epilogue or other reference Goldumund speakers?

Hello,

thanks for the kind words and sorry for the late reply.

Your question is tricky, as the 20H DAC is about 80K $ ; nothing can sound as good as 80K $.
At some point its just rather silly. Having said that, the DAC sounds very similiar to my Goldmund PH 3.8 NextGen DAC (Current Phono Flahship).
It is never harsh or strained on your ears, the sound is like clear water with no effect of any kind. It is now possible to clearly hear the environment in which the single instrument or vocal was recorded in. There are no bad recordings, you simply hear the "style" of the time the recording is made.

Before i switched my entire system (except the speakers) over to Goldmund, i had a lot of Brands in my home. Now, i have no interest in spening my time comparing equipment, that "fad" is now not important anymore, i just listen to my system and enjoy the music Like my Apogee Grands, the Goldmund equipment reduced my desire for anything else to almost zero.

 

[Florian]

Hi Florian,

That is fantastic feedback. How do you power the Apogee Grands...did you replace their internal subwoofer amp with Goldmund as well, or are you still using the original Krell amp that was apparently part of the original design?

Also, have you ever considered moving across to Goldmund Epilogue or other reference Goldumund speakers?

The Grand comes with two amplifiers per side, one for the Subwoofer and another one for the Tweeter. The Subwoofer amp cannot be exchanged while keeping the visuals and constructions of the speaker original. The reason is that at the back of the speaker are outputs from the active crossover for the panel, midrange and tweeter only.

In short, I use the build in Krell amplifier for the Subwoofer drivers. I use 2 Goldmund Telos 600 Monoblocks for panel and midrange as well as a Goldmund Telos 200 monoblock for the Tweeter. In total, 8 monoblocks.

This year I tried to switch back to the Krell Tweeter amplifier to generate some cash to ease the payment of the Goldmund 20h NextGen. The system sounded dull, closed in and terribly boring. I was lucky that my dealer kept my Telos 200 monoblocks and I bought them back.

My mind has explored the possibility of trying an Apolouge or maybe a full stack Epilogue. A fully integrated system is much easier and allows more focus on the music. Currently I have 13 dedicated powerlines and have to turn on 15 devices to listen to music, an integrated solution would be quite amazing to own.

I have personally spent seven years restoring my Grands, researching and making contact with the original designers and thought myself Assembler Code to program the software in the speakers as well. The sourcing of original vacuum fluorescent displays took me two years as well. All information on the internet and used by so called Apogee Installers came from my work originally, which I shared for free. So, I am emotionally linked to this speaker. I bought it when I was 20 years old and my entire career, life so to speak was dedicated to giving the speaker what it needs to function, next to my family, career and finally the purchase of our house.

On a note on the speaker. The system is very large, the electronics are great but need hundreds of hours of research, restoration and dedication. The resolution and dynamic capabilities are like a big horn combined with electrostatic abilities. The price and effort required to make it sing, is astonishing and even after I dedicated close to 20 years of work and earnings into it, I feel like I am at maybe 80% of their potential. They are a one off item, and if you love what they do, there is no alternative.

 

[nirodha]

The Grand comes with two amplifiers per side, one for the Subwoofer and another one for the Tweeter. The Subwoofer amp cannot be exchanged while keeping the visuals and constructions of the speaker original. The reason is that at the back of the speaker are outputs from the active crossover for the panel, midrange and tweeter only.

In short, I use the build in Krell amplifier for the Subwoofer drivers. I use 2 Goldmund Telos 600 Monoblocks for panel and midrange as well as a Goldmund Telos 200 monoblock for the Tweeter. In total, 8 monoblocks.

This year I tried to switch back to the Krell Tweeter amplifier to generate some cash to ease the payment of the Goldmund 20h NextGen. The system sounded dull, closed in and terribly boring. I was lucky that my dealer kept my Telos 200 monoblocks and I bought them back.

My mind has explored the possibility of trying an Apolouge or maybe a full stack Epilogue. A fully integrated system is much easier and allows more focus on the music. Currently I have 13 dedicated powerlines and have to turn on 15 devices to listen to music, an integrated solution would be quite amazing to own.

I have personally spent seven years restoring my Grands, researching and making contact with the original designers and thought myself Assembler Code to program the software in the speakers as well. The sourcing of original vacuum fluorescent displays took me two years as well. All information on the internet and used by so called Apogee Installers came from my work originally, which I shared for free. So, I am emotionally linked to this speaker. I bought it when I was 20 years old and my entire career, life so to speak was dedicated to giving the speaker what it needs to function, next to my family, career and finally the purchase of our house.

On a note on the speaker. The system is very large, the electronics are great but need hundreds of hours of research, restoration and dedication. The resolution and dynamic capabilities are like a big horn combined with electrostatic abilities. The price and effort required to make it sing, is astonishing and even after I dedicated close to 20 years of work and earnings into it, I feel like I am at maybe 80% of their potential. They are a one off item, and if you love what they do, there is no alternative.

Gotta love your dedication. Keep it up, but above all: ENJOY!

 

[ashandger]

I use Magnan Signature and and a Swiss Cable Brand (Symo Reference)

Great. Many thanks for the feedback

 

[LL21]

The Grand comes with two amplifiers per side, one for the Subwoofer and another one for the Tweeter. The Subwoofer amp cannot be exchanged while keeping the visuals and constructions of the speaker original. The reason is that at the back of the speaker are outputs from the active crossover for the panel, midrange and tweeter only.

In short, I use the build in Krell amplifier for the Subwoofer drivers. I use 2 Goldmund Telos 600 Monoblocks for panel and midrange as well as a Goldmund Telos 200 monoblock for the Tweeter. In total, 8 monoblocks.

This year I tried to switch back to the Krell Tweeter amplifier to generate some cash to ease the payment of the Goldmund 20h NextGen. The system sounded dull, closed in and terribly boring. I was lucky that my dealer kept my Telos 200 monoblocks and I bought them back.

My mind has explored the possibility of trying an Apolouge or maybe a full stack Epilogue. A fully integrated system is much easier and allows more focus on the music. Currently I have 13 dedicated powerlines and have to turn on 15 devices to listen to music, an integrated solution would be quite amazing to own.

I have personally spent seven years restoring my Grands, researching and making contact with the original designers and thought myself Assembler Code to program the software in the speakers as well. The sourcing of original vacuum fluorescent displays took me two years as well. All information on the internet and used by so called Apogee Installers came from my work originally, which I shared for free. So, I am emotionally linked to this speaker. I bought it when I was 20 years old and my entire career, life so to speak was dedicated to giving the speaker what it needs to function, next to my family, career and finally the purchase of our house.

On a note on the speaker. The system is very large, the electronics are great but need hundreds of hours of research, restoration and dedication. The resolution and dynamic capabilities are like a big horn combined with electrostatic abilities. The price and effort required to make it sing, is astonishing and even after I dedicated close to 20 years of work and earnings into it, I feel like I am at maybe 80% of their potential. They are a one off item, and if you love what they do, there is no alternative.

Man, that is some SERIOUS dedication! I have to say, you dedicated 20 years towards truly one of the legendary speakers...and no doubt as you say, there is no alternative if you love what they do. I could believe that.

Of all the discussions over the years about repairing, improving these magnificent speakers...did you ever speak with Dan D'Agostino to see what he thought might be 'upgraded' in those built-in amps? Just curious.

 

[Florian]

Man, that is some SERIOUS dedication! I have to say, you dedicated 20 years towards truly one of the legendary speakers...and no doubt as you say, there is no alternative if you love what they do. I could believe that.

Of all the discussions over the years about repairing, improving these magnificent speakers...did you ever speak with Dan D'Agostino to see what he thought might be 'upgraded' in those built-in amps? Just curious.

I spoke to Mike Daniel's (ex Product Manager of Apogee), Andy Lewis (Project Lead of the Grand), Bill Ordner (Bill of Materials, Software and Schematic) as well as Dan D'Agostinos son, who unfortunately passed away at a young age. From his son I learned that he, his father and Jason Bloom spent many hours listening to resistors, cables and other component changes. In an interview with Dan D'Agostino I read, he mentions the upgrade of the Subwoofers with servo controls. He did do this upgrade on his pair, which has now been sold to Brazil I belive (a long time ago).

Personally I am happy that they did not. Mike Daniel told me that the drivers are made in house and not bought by Vifa, like in the smaller Studio Grand. The woofer drivers were made so that they match the harmonic distortion charactereristics of the panel. The Grand is designed with very shallow crossovers (6db per octave). Since all drivers share the same type of distortion its important for the sub to do the same. A servo would change that characteristic.

The only tuning I did was to recut hundreds of threads from imperial Format to Metric.

PS: I attached a picture of the units (front)

 

[joel_hifi]

Florian, wonderful system

 

[LL21]

I spoke to Mike Daniel's (ex Product Manager of Apogee), Andy Lewis (Project Lead of the Grand), Bill Ordner (Bill of Materials, Software and Schematic) as well as Dan D'Agostinos son, who unfortunately passed away at a young age. From his son I learned that he, his father and Jason Bloom spent many hours listening to resistors, cables and other component changes. In an interview with Dan D'Agostino I read, he mentions the upgrade of the Subwoofers with servo controls. He did do this upgrade on his pair, which has now been sold to Brazil I belive (a long time ago).

Personally I am happy that they did not. Mike Daniel told me that the drivers are made in house and not bought by Vifa, like in the smaller Studio Grand. The woofer drivers were made so that they match the harmonic distortion charactereristics of the panel. The Grand is designed with very shallow crossovers (6db per octave). Since all drivers share the same type of distortion its important for the sub to do the same. A servo would change that characteristic.

The only tuning I did was to recut hundreds of threads from imperial Format to Metric.

PS: I attached a picture of the units (front)

Super-thorough! Great work! Thanks for that update. What a great story.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Hello,

thanks for the kind words and sorry for the late reply.

Your question is tricky, as the 20H DAC is about 80K $ ; nothing can sound as good as 80K $.
At some point its just rather silly. Having said that, the DAC sounds very similiar to my Goldmund PH 3.8 NextGen DAC (Current Phono Flahship).
It is never harsh or strained on your ears, the sound is like clear water with no effect of any kind. It is now possible to clearly hear the environment in which the single instrument or vocal was recorded in. There are no bad recordings, you simply hear the "style" of the time the recording is made.

Before i switched my entire system (except the speakers) over to Goldmund, i had a lot of Brands in my home. Now, i have no interest in spening my time comparing equipment, that "fad" is now not important anymore, i just listen to my system and enjoy the music Like my Apogee Grands, the Goldmund equipment reduced my desire for anything else to almost zero.

Florian ,

A great system!! I 'm curious if you have had a chance to try the new Nex Gen line of Goldmund monoblock amplifiers (Next Gen 1000/2500, etc) in your system, and compared them with the Telos 600 & 200 units? You are obviously keeping in touch with newer products development from the Goldmund, and given that you have one of the few, true "reference" speakers ever made, it would be very illuminating to hear about you experience in the field! Kind regards from NYC

 

[Florian]

Florian ,

A great system!! I 'm curious if you have had a chance to try the new Nex Gen line of Goldmund monoblock amplifiers (Next Gen 1000/2500, etc) in your system, and compared them with the Telos 600 & 200 units? You are obviously keeping in touch with newer products development from the Goldmund, and given that you have one of the few, true "reference" speakers ever made, it would be very illuminating to hear about you experience in the field! Kind regards from NYC

Hello to NYC

Thanks for the kind words. I have not tried the new Telos 1000 and 2500 NextGen yet. For me the hobby ends on this level. In the future i want to upgrade the remaining 200s (tweeter amps) to 600s and upgrade the 27.8 to the 37s. I did however invest quite some money in room acoustics. Attached are two new pictures

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Thanks for your reply. Incidently I was at the Apogee Grand's premiere unveiling in the early 90s, at NYC Sound by Singer store. Jason Bloom was there, and the speakers were magnificent, driven by Krell Reference amps! I recall the organ piece I asked to play from mine cd Audivus label sampler, just WOW! That demo is still fresh in my memory, even after so many years! There were quite of few audiophiles (two good friends of mine) who bought Apogee Full Range (the top part of the Grand) models and ran them with Nestorovic subwoofers, or VMPS tower Subwoofers ,and also achieved fantastic results. But crossovers were such a complex hassle! SOrry to veer off the subject of Goldmund..... In any event why would you want to switch to the Telos 600 from the Telos 200 I wonder? Telos 200 supposed to be quite transparent, even compared to the Telos 600 from what I ve heard from my European audio buddies, and lacks the complex digital circuit that supposedely gives Telos 600 somewhat artificial singnature. But I have NOT listened to the Telos 600 so would gladly hear what your experience has been. Now, I ve heard the new 37 preamp is quite good. Thanks

 

[Florian]

Great to hear about your demo of the Grand at Sound by Singer

There are many misconceptions about the Grand, for example about the "top" part ;-) The Fullrange and the Grand share absolutely nothing design wise. The Grand uses a completely unique ribbon and magnet design, found in no other Apogee model.

Fullrange uses all straight cut ribbons with rectangular magnets (shard corners on the exit path of the sound wave at the midrange and tweeter). The bass uses a kapton backing, the midrange and tweeter do not. Usuallly sold passive or semi active.

The Grand has wave cut ribbons, the distance to the magnet array is a little closer to increase efficeny. The magnets are rounded on the front, to match the cover unit and act as a wave guide for the midrange. The midrange is a 6 trace ribbon, wave cut with kapton and the tweeter is a 2 trace, kapton backed unit with a more narrow wave guide as well as being fully active, not semi. The advantages are obvious, same distortion characteristics on all drivers above 30Hz, where in contrast to the Fullrange the bass has not the same characteristics as the midrange and tweeter. Apogee Trivia: The subwoofer has no servo on purpose! The drivers in the Grand are hand made by Apogee, to have the same type of distortion and sound as the bass panels. Using a servo changes that and decreases the match. The entire speaker is designed to blend over a very wide range and have almost no limits. The subwoofer and and tweeter circuit for example do not limit the low end or high end, there is no roll off by design.

The crossover part of the electronics is quite simple actually, and in contrast to other Apogee crossovers, fully balanced. 6bd per Octave with a more steep slope at the end on the woofer and midrange.

The system does need a lot of current, which i found out a little late in the journes. The Telos 600 has many quality upgrades over the 200, for example all vacume sealed transformers (8 per monoblock) and output stages on the rear, to remove all heat from the input circuitry as well as capacitors. The current delivery is much higher as is the bandwith. ..... another factor is that 6 x Telos 600 looks nicer ;-)

PS: Every unit i own has its own dedicated circuit and is run of a 20KW Solar Grid, no worries on power bills

 

[AudioLibertarian]

PS: Every unit i own has its own dedicated circuit and is run of a 20KW Solar Grid, no worries on power bills

I did not know the Grand are using a different ribbon lay out... Live and learn! I have been wanting to get the Divas myself, but due to logistical domestic issues have not, but soon I hope!

Have you tried running the system on a regular power grid? Quite a few audiophiles in USA have gotten VERY poor results when upgraded to the solar panel grid....I know some have gone back to using regular power grids supply with much better results... Obviously each case is different

As far as the 20H dac, which other dacs have to tried before getting the 20H, may I ask? Have you looked inside of the 20H by any chance? Very few of those have been sold worldwide, may be 4 or 5 , I was told...

 

[Florian]

No worries, there is a ton of missinformation about those speakers and not many owners who can clear that up

Before the 20H I had the DAC in the 27.8, Audio Note Level 5, Luxman 5, Krell X64 and I don't know what else. I heard quite a few but i am honest with you, I got so sick and tired of comparing. After selling my soul to Goldmund I am at peace, I really enjoy the system and cannot care less about comparing and searching.

Many years ago I had big Krell Reference Series 200 Monos and they sucked, just terrible what happens when you follow audio forum recommendations .... I tried really big single ended tubes which sound nice but don't have enough current for high level listening.

In regards to Solar, my system switched between solar and non solar, depending on production quota and the system sounds exactly the same. It switches in real time and there is no difference for me.