Graham's new LS5/5

CKKeung

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2011
3,053
3,172
1,410
Hong Kong
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: howiebrou
Derek Hughes assures us that the slots control the dispersion and make the speakers easier to position in a room. The BBC was v. proud of this design and thought it was their best design for monitoring their recordings of classical music. However, when the Rock n Roll era came about the engineers found that the LS5/5 would not play loud enough, so they replaced the LS5/5 with the LS5/8.

The LS5/8 was the first BBC loudspeaker to use a polypropylene diaphragm which, being lighter than Bextrene, offered greater efficiency and lower colouration. A carefully researched cone profile enabled the unit to work successfully well into the midrange.

Fast forward to 2019 and with the use of higher quality magnets, drivers, glue, crossover components; the revised LS5/5 now has 9dB greater power handling/output. This is eight times louder than the original. As you can see from the White Paper (click here), the original LS5/5 was powered by an onboard 25 WPC amplifier. The 2019 Graham revised LS5/5 is a passive design. We are currently waiting on Gig Harbor Audio to finish the fabrication of the bespoke stands for the LS5/5.
 

Attachments

  • LS5:5_small.jpg
    LS5:5_small.jpg
    98.2 KB · Views: 40

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I had the good fortune a few days ago of hearing both the ls 5/8 as well as the ls 5/5 at Philip's home. As Philip has pointed out some of the differences my take on the Graham line was that their flagship was the 5/5 done many decades ago by the BBC and then the 5/8 which came to market because it could play louder, and in the rock and roll era of the time the new speaker satisfied many more needs

From what I recall the 5/8 has an MSRP of $12,500 USD whereas the 5/5 has an MSRP of $18,000 USD

I had a good listen to both speakers and for the money and peoples' music likes both speakers fill a niche.

I must say however that it was the 5/5 that really caught my attention. First off the build quality of the 5/5 IMO was better and I liked the darker finish which used darker fastening bots so that the numerous bolts were essentially invisible. I thought the 5/8 weighed less and used glossy silver bolts which I found distracting. Philip said it is an easy fix as the speakers come with many different finishes as well as hardware finishes..The deep bass on the 5/8 was louder ththe 5/5 but IMO the deep bass as well as the entire sound on the 5/5 was far better defined than the 5/8.

I asked Philip about the wood slots covering the bass drivers and got the answer he describes in the post above. That was my first question about the speaker

What I did like about the 5/8 was the trim switch for the tweeter. which I have always thought was a good thing.For me however the sound of the 5/5 was more refined and more to my tastes.

These were some of the caveats I learned about the 5/5

As great as the LS5/8 is, the 5/5 is in a different league.
¾ of the volume of the 5/8, it has an 8” woofer for the midrange in its own sealed compartment. A more complex crossover accounts for much of the weight differential, the smaller speaker is some 20 - 30lbs heavier than its larger sibling.

The slots around the woofers are wave guides and allow easier room placement. Did I mention that they seem to offer smoother sound ? Though I’m not sure if that’s a function of the ‘xovers or the slots ?

Sonically, the 5/5 has considerably more information across the midrange than the 5-8. There is a refinement present that many competitors could only aspire to but don’t have the resources to realise.
The bass is tighter & better defined. There is no loss of the midrange magic (realism) that the BBC is justifiably proud of.

An engineer from the BBC that Paul Graham introduced me to, described the LS5/5 as the best speaker that the BBC ever designed.
It was replaced by the LS5/8 at the advent of the Rock era in the seventies, as the artists wanted speakers that could play louder.
Derek Hughes 2019 version of the 5/5 has 9dB greater power handling. Due to the improvements over the past fifty years in magnets, glues, cabling, capacitors, coils etc.

Negatives.
1. It is 1 dB less efficient than the 5/8.
2. Flea powered amps need not apply. The Dynaco ST35 was found lacking, while an old Luxman MQ-88 (KT88 output) was up to the challenge & proved up to the task of delivering plump, rich, liquid, midrange magic.
 
Nice write up of the LS5/5 Montreal launch in Stereophile, missed this last year - my bad.
You can read here - happy reading !
 
This is a message from Derek Hughes, designer, Graham Audio, to give you an insight into how the LS5/5 unconventional slots work:


“All drive units are omnidirectional at low frequencies and have an increasingly narrow dispersion (beam width) as the frequency increases.
This means that at the crossover frequency, there will often be a reduction in the response to the sides of the speaker, and then an increase above the crossover frequency, as the smaller driver has a wider dispersion.
To reduce this effect, the LS5/5 uses slots in front of the LF & MR drivers.
The slot makes the drives perform as if it was a narrower source, giving it a wider dispersion, thus leading to a more uniform response off-axis.
This is particularly advantageous where there are several listeners as it widens the area where the response is smooth.
There is a limit to how narrow the slot can be in order to avoid resonant cavities behind it, giving dips in the response, so the slot width is such that these resonances occur above the crossover frequency.”
 

shakti

Well-Known Member
May 9, 2015
1,437
2,383
480
Cologne, Germany
As a friend of the BBC developed speakers, I decided to continue my "Vintage Sound" journey with a pair of BBC designed speakers.

As my room is like 65sqm, my favorite BBC LS 3/5 oder 5/9 will come to a limit, so I ordered a pair of Graham LS 5/5.

The burn in phase has started, but the first impression is very good, already better, than my previous used IMF TLS80 vintage speaker.

Final amplifier decision is not yet done, I can switch between Audionet solid state and Line Magnetic tube mono Amps,
IMG_7737.jpg IMG_7738.jpg IMG_7739.jpg burn in is done with Audionet, no need to give 100h to the tubes.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
4,938
6,268
950
Bangkok
As a friend of the BBC developed speakers, I decided to continue my "Vintage Sound" journey with a pair of BBC designed speakers.

As my room is like 65sqm, my favorite BBC LS 3/5 oder 5/9 will come to a limit, so I ordered a pair of Graham LS 5/5.

The burn in phase has started, but the first impression is very good, already better, than my previous used IMF TLS80 vintage speaker.

Final amplifier decision is not yet done, I can switch between Audionet solid state and Line Magnetic tube mono Amps,
View attachment 89627 View attachment 89628 View attachment 89626 burn in is done with Audionet, no need to give 100h to the tubes.
What is your "vintage sound" like? In your definition what characterize modern sound that is different from your "vintage sound." What year do you consider gears to be vintage? Just want to see how you view.

I listened to those old Tannoy videos in trumpet thread and I just cannot figure out if those great sound consider vintage?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bonzo75

shakti

Well-Known Member
May 9, 2015
1,437
2,383
480
Cologne, Germany
What is your "vintage sound" like? In your definition what characterize modern sound that is different from your "vintage sound." What year do you consider gears to be vintage? Just want to see how you view.

I listened to those old Tannoy videos in trumpet thread and I just cannot figure out if those great sound consider vintage?
As we do have the "vintage / modern" speaker thread and the "natural sound" thread it becomes difficult to write new arguments than the already discussed in the Graham 5/5 thread. From there I like to start my story the following way.

Comparing gear can follow at least the following theoretical structured way ( I am an Engineer, I like structured processes..):

Comparing by difference

If I listen to at 3 to 5 different records, I am focussing on the biggest difference in sound of the records.
Every component, which gives to the records a constant signature is easy identified, a transparent component will give you the character of the record without adding or loosing any information.


Comparing by reference

If the "master" is available, you can compare every individual component against the master. I did this prior choosing a DAC. Using a master tape playing on a modified Telefunken M15 and doing A/D conversion direct into a DAC, doing the D/A conversion. It was possible to swap between original master Tape and DAC. It was easy to identify, which DAC is more close to the master Tape.

Doing so, I was ending with High End Studio gear, very very transparent ro the given material. In theory the "perfect" reproduction chain.
Unfortunately my listening hours were becoming less and less....



My next step was, to understand my hearing preferences better. If I do not like the objective "best" and "neutral" gear to enjoy music with pleasure, it seems, that my hearing brain is biased in a personal way. Without going too much into the mechanism of the human brain and the hearing as such, it can be said, that the personal bias is a partially result of the individual hearing history. Understanding this, I wrote down all my gear, mainly the speakers, which gave me for many hours hearing / listening fun and satisfaction. This list than, I added some live music events, should list the major influences, which has driven the character of my "personal master". This "personal master" or "personal reference" prefers different sound, gear, than identified with the structured methods above.

One of the major milestones of programming my brain to built my personal reference were the years of listening to the

BBC LS 3/5a speakers.

This little ones gave me hours of enjoyed music.

My first Avalon was chosen, because I travelled with this little speakers from shop to shop and compared the offer with the performance of LS 3/5a. Avalon was the winner that time :)

Listening now to my main set up (again with Avalon speakers) I arrived at a point, where a "better" for me is difficult to imagine,
all changes in the last time were more "different" than "better" and it became more and more difficult to decide, which gear should stay and which gear should go.

Than I decided to go back to my listening roots and to train my brain to develop a better "master reference".

I bought a pair of Graham LS 3/5A as a starting point and listened to the roots of my personal reference imprint.

Training means also, to stretch the borders of the comfort zone and to listen to different set ups and to learn to enjoy them.
as an example:

The BBC LS 3/5a is a very good documented speaker development.

Reading their findings on the BBC homepage, my personal vintage starts, as all the papers were written in the 60's,
which is like 50 years ago. But their understanding of the human hearing seems to match my personal needs and has developed my personal reference in sound in a dominant way.

In 1967 they developed a speaker concept, which should be the reference for voice and classic music reproduction, the LS 5/5.



One of the main drivers was the legendary Spencer Hughes (who founded later on the Spendor company). His sun Derek Hughes is now a speaker designer as well and works for different companies, like Sterling and Graham.

He has a deep understanding of his fathers work and he translated the 1967 white paper into a modern physical product,
the Graham LS 5/5. Listening to the LS5/5 immediately shows, that they have fulfilled their goal of realistic voice reproduction.

I had the chance to listen to the Graham LS 5/5 in direct comparison to the Magico A5 (driven by NAT Magma amps) and my preference was easily the LS 5/5. Much more records were enjoyable for me. The A5 might be the "better" and "transparent" speaker according to the above mentioned criteria, but the A5 does not connect me to the music as such, as the LS 5/5 can do.

The development engineers of the BBC laboratory seem to have a better understanding to satisfy my hearing demand.
(I would say, classic "hen and egg" situation, as my hearing reference was built with the help of BBC speakers)

On the pictures above you can see behind the LS 5/5 a pair of vintage IMF TLS80 speaker, which are using similar drivers, than the classic BBC speakers. The old IMF Designs combine the BBC philosophy with a transmission line.


The IMF TLS80 was my hearing sense training speaker before, now being replaced by the Graham LS 5/5 (which is the better speaker)

Listening to this different set ups in my home (fortunately I can fill up three rooms with gear) is now stretching my comfort zone, that I am becoming better in this regard, that I can identify more easy, what is missing in may main set up and where to find the areas of improvement (within my given financial capabilities)




"What is your "vintage sound" like?"

My personal vintage sound is focussed on a real /authentic sounding midrange as first priority.
SPL and total frequency range comes second.


" In your definition what characterize modern sound that is different from your "vintage sound."

Modern sound tries to have a flat frequency, phase, time response for the complete audible band, trying to be "correct",
but mostly resulting in a boring, non lively sounding reproduction of music. Vintage Speaker Designer follow more of a Company Sound DNA according to the defined scope of usage, their speakers (like Altec, WE, BBC, Siemens) sound more different than modern speakers, it is more easy to identify a sound character which fits to your personal reference and room.


"What year do you consider gears to be vintage? "

Designs prior 1970 to my understanding, speakers can be built today, but still Design Vintage
(like some Tannoy, Graham, Klitsch and more)

I hope, that my thoughts have helped to answer your question.
 
Last edited:

Asa

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2012
79
35
923
As we do have the "vintage / modern" speaker thread and the "natural sound" thread it becomes difficult to write new arguments than the already discussed in the Graham 5/5 thread. From there I like to start my story the following way.

Comparing gear can follow at least the following theoretical structured way ( I am an Engineer, I like structured processes..):

Comparing by difference

If I listen to at 3 to 5 different records, I am focussing on the biggest difference in sound of the records.
Every component, which gives to the records a constant signature is easy identified, a transparent component will give you the character of the record without adding or loosing any information.


Comparing by reference

If the "master" is available, you can compare every individual component against the master. I did this prior choosing a DAC. Using a master tape playing on a modified Telefunken M15 and doing A/D conversion direct into a DAC, doing the D/A conversion. It was possible to swap between original master Tape and DAC. It was easy to identify, which DAC is more close to the master Tape.

Doing so, I was ending with High End Studio gear, very very transparent ro the given material. In theory the "perfect" reproduction chain.
Unfortunately my listening hours were becoming less and less....



My next step was, to understand my hearing preferences better. If I do not like the objective "best" and "neutral" gear to enjoy music with pleasure, it seems, that my hearing brain is biased in a personal way. Without going too much into the mechanism of the human brain and the hearing as such, it can be said, that the personal bias is a partially result of the individual hearing history. Understanding this, I wrote down all my gear, mainly the speakers, which gave me for many hours hearing / listening fun and satisfaction. This list than, I added some live music events, should list the major influences, which has driven the character of my "personal master". This "personal master" or "personal reference" prefers different sound, gear, than identified with the structured methods above.

One of the major milestones of programming my brain to built my personal reference were the years of listening to the

BBC LS 3/5a speakers.

This little ones gave me hours of enjoyed music.

My first Avalon was chosen, because I travelled with this little speakers from shop to shop and compared the offer with the performance of LS 3/5a. Avalon was the winner that time :)

Listening now to my main set up (again with Avalon speakers) I arrived at a point, where a "better" for me is difficult to imagine,
all changes in the last time were more "different" than "better" and it became more and more difficult to decide, which gear should stay and which gear should go.

Than I decided to go back to my listening roots and to train my brain to develop a better "master reference".

I bought a pair of Graham LS 3/5A as a starting point and listened to the roots of my personal reference imprint.

Training means also, to stretch the borders of the comfort zone and to listen to different set ups and to learn to enjoy them.
as an example:

The BBC LS 3/5a is a very good documented speaker development.

Reading their findings on the BBC homepage, my personal vintage starts, as all the papers were written in the 60's,
which is like 50 years ago. But their understanding of the human hearing seems to match my personal needs and has developed my personal reference in sound in a dominant way.

In 1967 they developed a speaker concept, which should be the reference for voice and classic music reproduction, the LS 5/5.



One of the main drivers was the legendary Spencer Hughes (who founded later on the Spendor company). His sun Derek Hughes is now a speaker designer as well and works for different companies, like Sterling and Graham.

He has a deep understanding of his fathers work and he translated the 1967 white paper into a modern physical product,
the Graham LS 5/5. Listening to the LS5/5 immediately shows, that they have fulfilled their goal of realistic voice reproduction.

I had the chance to listen to the Graham LS 5/5 in direct comparison to the Magico A5 (driven by NAT Magma amps) and my preference was easily the LS 5/5. Much more records were enjoyable for me. The A5 might be the "better" and "transparent" speaker according to the above mentioned criteria, but the A5 does not connect me to the music as such, as the LS 5/5 can do.

The development engineers of the BBC laboratory seem to have a better understanding to satisfy my hearing demand.
(I would say, classic "hen and egg" situation, as my hearing reference was built with the help of BBC speakers)

On the pictures above you can see behind the LS 5/5 a pair of vintage IMF TLS80 speaker, which are using similar drivers, than the classic BBC speakers. The old IMF Designs combine the BBC philosophy with a transmission line.


The IMF TLS80 was my hearing sense training speaker before, now being replaced by the Graham LS 5/5 (which is the better speaker)

Listening to this different set ups in my home (fortunately I can fill up three rooms with gear) is now stretching my comfort zone, that I am becoming better in this regard, that I can identify more easy, what is missing in may main set up and where to find the areas of improvement (within my given financial capabilities)




"What is your "vintage sound" like?"

My personal vintage sound is focussed on a real /authentic sounding midrange as first priority.
SPL and total frequency range comes second.


" In your definition what characterize modern sound that is different from your "vintage sound."

Modern sound tries to have a flat frequency, phase, time response for the complete audible band, trying to be "correct",
but mostly resulting in a boring, non lively sounding reproduction of music. Vintage Speaker Designer follow more of a Company Sound DNA according to the defined scope of usage, their speakers (like Altec, WE, BBC, Siemens) sound more different than modern speakers, it is more easy to identify a sound character which fits to your personal reference and room.


"What year do you consider gears to be vintage? "

Designs prior 1970 to my understanding, speakers can be built today, but still Design Vintage
(like some Tannoy, Graham, Klitsch and more)

I hope, that my thoughts have helped to answer your question.


Hi Shakti. Thank you for taking the time to tell us about your process in finding "natural sound." I think you said on a thread (that I started) that you understood me (with a knowing smile) when I said I had vintage Spendor 15ohm LS/3As run by an AirTight SET. Now I understand why you said that.

I'm intrigued by what you said about taking the LS/35As with you on your speaker search, and that you ended with the Avalon. We have very similar tastes, but I never thought of an Avalon for myself (I'm on a main room speaker hunt at the moment...), as ceramic drivers have always been problematic for me in the highs (a bit brittle).

Actually, I became frustrated enough this morning that I started thinking that I should just go find my old speakers - ESP Concert Grands - get my old 50W SET amps, put together the old system I had 25 yrs ago and forget the hi-end rat race...I'm open to older model speakers and never thought of Avalon....how do you find the harmonic performance of the drivers?

BTW, I see your Line Magnetic amps...I had Line Magnetic 755i field coil speakers for 4 years. Loved them, but needed full-range for larger scale pieces, so they were sold. Like my old Quads, I still miss them some times.

On what I listen for, like you, I look for how I react to a component. How readily do I "fall" into the music? In other words, how readily does my mind open to the music, become receptive and not searching for thoughts about what I am hearing. There are movies that end and I forget that I have been watching a movie. That's what I want from my stereo; the stereo instrument that we all put together acting as a "catalyst" toward that place.

Some characteristics of stereos that enable this for me are: complex harmonics that dissipate into space in a uniform and "natural" manner (meaning that the stereo space replicates the decaying of sound within dimensional space that I experience the rest of the day; decaying in an infinite way, instead of falling off too quickly), lack of artifices that are unnatural (for example, sound moving out through dimensional space does not load energy at the transient all of the time), and so on.

Does it sound "real"? And, does that sound creation/projection produce in me a "falling" into the music, to where I then forget that I am even listening?

That doesn't mean, of course, that I don't jam out to the Stones in my car all the time (with its Mark Levinson stereo)!
 

Asa

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2012
79
35
923
Ha! Shakti, just took a look at your LM thread...didn't realize you bought LM-755i speakers last November. And I thought I was the only one out there left running NBS ICs. We do have similar tastes...
 
Last edited:

davenrk

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2020
26
3
68
43
@shakti we have the same colour of the Graham 5/5, very mice indeed ;)

I come from a beautiful pair of 5/9, but the 5/5 is obviously in another league, the midrange is stunning.

I am doing the burning in, too, and building some "Foundation designer" replica stands, as I am convinced the original ones are NOT adequate at all, I made some comparisons with the 5/9 originals and Foundation Designer originals, there is no league at all...

now I am using some wooden stands while I am bulding the Foundation replica, with the same tubular size, and filling (lead shot and kiln dried sand)

these are mine, waiting for the powder coating....



I had the Spendor SP100R2 in the past, the 5/5 are the real modern original SP100 designer by Hughes before he sold (Spencer) the Spendor in 1992.
 
Last edited:

CKKeung

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2011
3,053
3,172
1,410
Hong Kong

Scott W

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
336
163
1,600
Texas
www.suprahifi.com
Absolutely wonderful sound coming out of the Graham LS5/5's.

IMG_9622.JPG
IMG_9623.JPG IMG_9624.JPG
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing