Yes, it's all euro to me. 
We ARE talking about Greece here and then Spain and then Italy. I think you get the picture.
We ARE talking about Greece here and then Spain and then Italy. I think you get the picture.
Greek Manufacturer Shutdown?
- Thread starter dallasjustice
- Start date
Yes, it's all euro to me.
We ARE talking about Greece here and then Spain and then Italy. I think you get the picture.
The point is that the Eurozone can go to hell without splitting the EU apart.
The real threat to the EU (the European UNION) is the UK referendum.
Another tidbit, Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU, but share the same Schengen immigration process as most of the EU, while the UK is in the EU but has separate Border control/visa regime.
Yes, my brother lived in Zurich for a couple of years. He could work there because we carry two passports; German and US. At that time, I thought it was funny how the Germans weren't happy about air traffic noise overhead coming in/out of Zurich airport.
Sad situation for all small greek companies, not only for the few audio manufacturers, bad situation for all of greece, their government is still on collision drive with the rest of europe.
The rest of europe was desperately seeking for solutions, only to be offended by the current greek government
Right now you see a lot of greek people and dealers trying to sell their audio stuff on audio-markt.de, with little success.
We all hope greece will decide pro Euro and pro EU next sunday, otherwise its most likely they will be out of the euro, with even more painful cuts for most of the greek people.
Even a left wing government hasn't made any progress to establish a working tax system, shipping company owners still don't have to pay any tax, by constitution.
The richest greek people bought top class, high prized properties in Switzerland and London, on swiss bank accounts 80bio euros from greece found a save haven, approximately 30% of that money no taxes were paid for. So why should the average greek pay taxes? As long as the money comes from somewhere else..
taxes not paid in 2014: 66 billion EU
Reform the pension system: NO
Reform the military expenses (4% of the GNP in greece, 1.5% in Germany) NO
Raise taxes: NO
reduce expenses for the public sector: NO (20% of all employees work in the common sector)
I believe most of the greek work hard or would like to work hard to make a living
In germany at the beginning of 2015 all the polls had a 60% majority to help greece with more money, now this has completely changed. If there would be a vote in all other 18 EU Nations next sunday if greece should get more money from the eu and ECB, especially in those countries which already have undergone a strict reformation process, like Portugal, Ireland, Spain, and all countries in eastern europe would vote 'NO', as long as the greek authorities are not really willing not only talk about changes, but really put real changes in to order.
When greece fails and goes back to the drachme, Mr. Varoufakis will go back to the University of Texas, to teach his marxist view on economy, or back as an advisor to the Valve Corporation to develop computer games. Mr Tsipras will write a book: "The greek Robin Hood or why it wasn't my fault."
Certainly the EU has made mistakes in greece, there should have been more effort to get the economy running, but this only works with functioning, effective public sector.
I really would love to think more about music, the fantastic greek audiophiles in this vimeo video, and the improvement of my own system, but right now the greek crisis ist the main topic here in europe.
Must be strange to watch from outside the EU, to see 18 countries struggling to keep one country in the EU and in the EURO.
Best regards
Jan
The rest of europe was desperately seeking for solutions, only to be offended by the current greek government
Right now you see a lot of greek people and dealers trying to sell their audio stuff on audio-markt.de, with little success.
We all hope greece will decide pro Euro and pro EU next sunday, otherwise its most likely they will be out of the euro, with even more painful cuts for most of the greek people.
Even a left wing government hasn't made any progress to establish a working tax system, shipping company owners still don't have to pay any tax, by constitution.
The richest greek people bought top class, high prized properties in Switzerland and London, on swiss bank accounts 80bio euros from greece found a save haven, approximately 30% of that money no taxes were paid for. So why should the average greek pay taxes? As long as the money comes from somewhere else..
taxes not paid in 2014: 66 billion EU
Reform the pension system: NO
Reform the military expenses (4% of the GNP in greece, 1.5% in Germany) NO
Raise taxes: NO
reduce expenses for the public sector: NO (20% of all employees work in the common sector)
I believe most of the greek work hard or would like to work hard to make a living
In germany at the beginning of 2015 all the polls had a 60% majority to help greece with more money, now this has completely changed. If there would be a vote in all other 18 EU Nations next sunday if greece should get more money from the eu and ECB, especially in those countries which already have undergone a strict reformation process, like Portugal, Ireland, Spain, and all countries in eastern europe would vote 'NO', as long as the greek authorities are not really willing not only talk about changes, but really put real changes in to order.
When greece fails and goes back to the drachme, Mr. Varoufakis will go back to the University of Texas, to teach his marxist view on economy, or back as an advisor to the Valve Corporation to develop computer games. Mr Tsipras will write a book: "The greek Robin Hood or why it wasn't my fault."
Certainly the EU has made mistakes in greece, there should have been more effort to get the economy running, but this only works with functioning, effective public sector.
I really would love to think more about music, the fantastic greek audiophiles in this vimeo video, and the improvement of my own system, but right now the greek crisis ist the main topic here in europe.
Must be strange to watch from outside the EU, to see 18 countries struggling to keep one country in the EU and in the EURO.
Best regards
Jan
Last edited:
This is a good explanation of what I was talking about a few days ago. Germany should NOT let the Greeks out if they want the EU to continue.
http://bloom.bg/1KwVr9x
I don't confuse the Greek government with the people. If given a fighting chance without the debt albatross and no more bailout safety nets, the Greek people could turn their economy around. That would be disastrous for the EU. If they want to know what could really happen when they cut Greece out, the Keynsian Economists may want to actually listen to the free-market/Austrian Economists.
http://bloom.bg/1KwVr9x
I don't confuse the Greek government with the people. If given a fighting chance without the debt albatross and no more bailout safety nets, the Greek people could turn their economy around. That would be disastrous for the EU. If they want to know what could really happen when they cut Greece out, the Keynsian Economists may want to actually listen to the free-market/Austrian Economists.
Last edited:
Do you realize what you say , who the the hell does Germany and the EU think they are to decide for Greece and the greek people , dont you think people deserve freedom during the short time they live on this planet .
I certainly dont want Germany dominating the EU seen its past
, who the the hell does Germany and the EU think they are to decide for Greece and the greek people , dont you think people deserve freedom during the short time they live on this planet .I certainly dont want Germany dominating the EU seen its past
Do you realize what you say
They're the most solvent, responsible government in the EU and they're doing their best to bail the insolvent, irresponsible Greek government out of the mess they created. Any questions?
The only thing the EU (the EU dominated by Germany )is after is domination , this time domination through debt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CZr17HLH5U.
The ECB is headed from frankfurt , the one who controls the money supply has all the power, europe hasnt learned ****
Und ja ich spreche auch deutsch, this is the bankfraud of the century
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CZr17HLH5U.
The ECB is headed from frankfurt , the one who controls the money supply has all the power, europe hasnt learned ****
Und ja ich spreche auch deutsch, this is the bankfraud of the century
The only thing the EU (the EU dominated by Germany )is after is domination , this time domination through debt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CZr17HLH5U.
The ECB is headed from frankfurt , the one who controls the money supply has all the power, europe hasnt learned ****
Und ja ich spreche auch deutsch, this is the bankfraud of the century
Not in the EU, not a European ..Not sure I fully comprehend what is going on but ... haven't Greece Governments seeded what is happenings right now .. I mean, their taxation systems was not sustainable from the start . .,What I do find quite interesting and bizarre is why they were allowed into the Euro? Any economist should have seen this coming ... What is worse is that they are not alone being so so reckless with their Public Finances .. Some other countries could follow suit ...
They were allowed into the EU via a currency swapdeal to fall under the 60 % deficit norm (with help from goldman sachs and given approval of eurostat ) the banking system are to blame themselves but instead they try to roll off all the losses on the taxpayer.
The banks made huge profits on cheap money to Greece as they thought they were backed up by the EU anyway
Greece has sustained and has been selfsupporting for thousands of years and now somehow armaggedon will take place if they step out of the EU(read banks dont get their money back )
The banks made huge profits on cheap money to Greece as they thought they were backed up by the EU anyway
Greece has sustained and has been selfsupporting for thousands of years and now somehow armaggedon will take place if they step out of the EU(read banks dont get their money back )
Maybe, as a german, I should change my nick to DarthVader?
Maybe some numbers?
Greek owes money not only to the banks, but in total 317 billion euros = 352 billion $ to:
EU Countries: 190 billion Euros in total, of that amount: Germany 87.8 billion Euros, Netherlands 19 Billion Euros
ECB: 27 billion euros
IMF: 21 billion euros
banks: 36.6 billion euros
others: 37.5 billion euros
Not included in the above numbers: ELA (Emergency Liquidity Assistance) from the ECB to greece: 90 billion Euros: that money goes directly to the banks, so that they are able to fill up the ATM's with cash. Maximum withdrawal: 60€ daily
taxes not paid in greece: 30 billion € every year!
The problem is, that greece is not self supporting, they are dependend on foreign money. Greece is bankrupt, and was not able to pay the the first rate to the IMF on Tuesday.
Did the EU, especially germany close their eyes to the greek deficit when greece became member of the Euro system: definitely yes!
Greece applied to become a member of the Eurozone with wrong deficit numbers for 7 years, with as already mentioned, the support of Goldman Sachs
The EU wanted to have greece become a member of the common market, not because of the economy of greece, but as a stabilizing factor in this region, greece has borders to the balkans, in these times still not stable countries.
Have the greek people the right to have a democratic election wether they would accept further cuts in the social system or if they want to leave the Eurozone: definitely. All countries in the Eurozone are democratic. Nobody is opposing this referendum. It might have been only wiser to have this referendum before the aid program finished on June 30th. Before June 30th, the greek government could have used a 'NO' as much as a 'YES' to achieve an even better deal and the prolongation of the second aid program.
As this second aid program is not longer existent, it doesn't make really sense to let the greek people decide wether they would except the results of the negotiations of the second aid program.
Next monday, after the election, the negotations for the third aid program start at point zero, ALL EU countries need to have their democratic elected parliaments decide wether there will be further aid for greece.
340 Million people live in the Eurozone, 11 Million people live in greece, would it be really democratic if the greek people decide that all the other people in the Eurozone pay for greece with their taxes? Would it be wise to have that democratic election in Portugal, Lithuania and other countries which have already gone through these painful programs successfully?
What is the solution?
If greece votes 'NO' and leaves the Eurozone, there will be a even worse humanitarian crisis, which would cause, naturally, further help programs.
If greece votes 'YES', the Syriza government will resign (maybe), and a within a few weeks, there could be elections, the polls say, that Syria will win again.
As everybody is discussing these topics, no changes in greece tax system or public sector are achieved, all suggestions by the greek government during
the negotiations will only put to order when the Eurozone prolongs the second aid program and pays more money.
Next monday or tuesday, greece will not have any money, the ATM's will be empty.
As a tax payer, I would say: let them go, as a european, I hope we achieve that they stay in the EU and in the eurozone.
Maybe some numbers?
Greek owes money not only to the banks, but in total 317 billion euros = 352 billion $ to:
EU Countries: 190 billion Euros in total, of that amount: Germany 87.8 billion Euros, Netherlands 19 Billion Euros
ECB: 27 billion euros
IMF: 21 billion euros
banks: 36.6 billion euros
others: 37.5 billion euros
Not included in the above numbers: ELA (Emergency Liquidity Assistance) from the ECB to greece: 90 billion Euros: that money goes directly to the banks, so that they are able to fill up the ATM's with cash. Maximum withdrawal: 60€ daily
taxes not paid in greece: 30 billion € every year!
The problem is, that greece is not self supporting, they are dependend on foreign money. Greece is bankrupt, and was not able to pay the the first rate to the IMF on Tuesday.
Did the EU, especially germany close their eyes to the greek deficit when greece became member of the Euro system: definitely yes!
Greece applied to become a member of the Eurozone with wrong deficit numbers for 7 years, with as already mentioned, the support of Goldman Sachs
The EU wanted to have greece become a member of the common market, not because of the economy of greece, but as a stabilizing factor in this region, greece has borders to the balkans, in these times still not stable countries.
Have the greek people the right to have a democratic election wether they would accept further cuts in the social system or if they want to leave the Eurozone: definitely. All countries in the Eurozone are democratic. Nobody is opposing this referendum. It might have been only wiser to have this referendum before the aid program finished on June 30th. Before June 30th, the greek government could have used a 'NO' as much as a 'YES' to achieve an even better deal and the prolongation of the second aid program.
As this second aid program is not longer existent, it doesn't make really sense to let the greek people decide wether they would except the results of the negotiations of the second aid program.
Next monday, after the election, the negotations for the third aid program start at point zero, ALL EU countries need to have their democratic elected parliaments decide wether there will be further aid for greece.
340 Million people live in the Eurozone, 11 Million people live in greece, would it be really democratic if the greek people decide that all the other people in the Eurozone pay for greece with their taxes? Would it be wise to have that democratic election in Portugal, Lithuania and other countries which have already gone through these painful programs successfully?
What is the solution?
If greece votes 'NO' and leaves the Eurozone, there will be a even worse humanitarian crisis, which would cause, naturally, further help programs.
If greece votes 'YES', the Syriza government will resign (maybe), and a within a few weeks, there could be elections, the polls say, that Syria will win again.
As everybody is discussing these topics, no changes in greece tax system or public sector are achieved, all suggestions by the greek government during
the negotiations will only put to order when the Eurozone prolongs the second aid program and pays more money.
Next monday or tuesday, greece will not have any money, the ATM's will be empty.
As a tax payer, I would say: let them go, as a european, I hope we achieve that they stay in the EU and in the eurozone.
EU democratic ? we voted no to the new EU constitution , then they changed the name of the treaty and marked it as something that doesnt need to be voted for and the dutch governemnt signed it anyway ,gone is our independance , the EU is all about their will is law and nothing else , every one who opposes them is labeled a rightwing activist .
The soviet Union (communism)fell apart but it seems the well payed bobos in brussel want to give that system another shot , brussel style
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/02/eu.politics
And they need more and more money , we used to have 1 governement to pay to , the " fines " they gave us are not based on facts and our goverment holds back info on the why , it has now increased to around 1,5 billion , nobody of the people voted for van rompuy or Barroso
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29751124
Furthermore their foreign politics are disasterous, Greece should tie up more with china and Russia in my view there lies the future , cooperation.
Russia let Germany be reunited again on the agreement nato would not expand eastwards , look whats happening
The soviet Union (communism)fell apart but it seems the well payed bobos in brussel want to give that system another shot , brussel style
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/02/eu.politics
And they need more and more money , we used to have 1 governement to pay to , the " fines " they gave us are not based on facts and our goverment holds back info on the why , it has now increased to around 1,5 billion , nobody of the people voted for van rompuy or Barroso
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29751124
Furthermore their foreign politics are disasterous, Greece should tie up more with china and Russia in my view there lies the future , cooperation.
Russia let Germany be reunited again on the agreement nato would not expand eastwards , look whats happening
Last edited:
The Greeks really "had it made", pensions, more than one per person, starting at 45 yrs of age, self assessment for everyone - surgeons claiming they earn Euros 30k/annum, everyone w/a paypacket from the State. All funded mainly by the Germans w/us Brits chipping in a lot. Why would anyone in the country back in the day rebel against this, esp when the EU and banks were up to their neck desperate to make this all work. The Great European Project had to be made to work, to satisfy the bloated egos of the Euro Marxists who have tried to slip Soviet-style economic control under the noses of the EEC populations.
Time for the Greeks to cut free, and if they want to avoid the fate that nearly befell Zimbabwe, do what they did - no new currency, just trade in foreign currency, probably $'s. Just not Euros!
Is it any mystery none of the other major trading blocks haven't tried to force economic/currency parity btwn wildly disparate economies - ie how would the Haitian currency work tied to the $, or Tahiti to the Aus $, or Nepal to the Yen? Bloody badly, fatally, I contend.
Time for the Greeks to cut free, and if they want to avoid the fate that nearly befell Zimbabwe, do what they did - no new currency, just trade in foreign currency, probably $'s. Just not Euros!
Is it any mystery none of the other major trading blocks haven't tried to force economic/currency parity btwn wildly disparate economies - ie how would the Haitian currency work tied to the $, or Tahiti to the Aus $, or Nepal to the Yen? Bloody badly, fatally, I contend.
Last edited:
I think it has now changed but not that long ago Greek MPs received a "monthly" salary 17 times per annum.
What Greece clearly needs is not merely economic change but a major cultural change and that is always the most difficult change to effect.
What Greece clearly needs is not merely economic change but a major cultural change and that is always the most difficult change to effect.
If other countries follow, certainly the Greeks have set the model on how to do it. To me, it's like the housewife who wants a divorce from a rich husband. She simply spends everything in the accounts and maxes out his credit shortly before filing for divorce.
Were you my ex-wife's lawyer?
I only do criminal law, so no. Sorry to hear you had first hand experience with an expensive break-up. :-(
Clearly an unsustainable society...little industry. If they vote no and are kicked out of the EU, they will be a third world country in no time...hopefully they are not that stupid.
Same kind of evil anyway for the ordinary Greek with the cutbacks hanging over their heads if they vote yes.
This problem didn't just started yesterday, every EU finance joker at the time knew that a very well know bank had helped Greece to be "creative" with their balance sheets so that they could get into the EU but they let them in anyway...
This problem didn't just started yesterday, every EU finance joker at the time knew that a very well know bank had helped Greece to be "creative" with their balance sheets so that they could get into the EU but they let them in anyway...
Maybe, as a german, I should change my nick to DarthVader?
Maybe some numbers?
Greek owes money not only to the banks, but in total 317 billion euros = 352 billion $ to:
EU Countries: 190 billion Euros in total, of that amount: Germany 87.8 billion Euros, Netherlands 19 Billion Euros
ECB: 27 billion euros
IMF: 21 billion euros
banks: 36.6 billion euros
others: 37.5 billion euros
Not included in the above numbers: ELA (Emergency Liquidity Assistance) from the ECB to greece: 90 billion Euros: that money goes directly to the banks, so that they are able to fill up the ATM's with cash. Maximum withdrawal: 60€ daily
taxes not paid in greece: 30 billion € every year!
The problem is, that greece is not self supporting, they are dependend on foreign money. Greece is bankrupt, and was not able to pay the the first rate to the IMF on Tuesday.
Did the EU, especially germany close their eyes to the greek deficit when greece became member of the Euro system: definitely yes!
Greece applied to become a member of the Eurozone with wrong deficit numbers for 7 years, with as already mentioned, the support of Goldman Sachs
The EU wanted to have greece become a member of the common market, not because of the economy of greece, but as a stabilizing factor in this region, greece has borders to the balkans, in these times still not stable countries.
Have the greek people the right to have a democratic election wether they would accept further cuts in the social system or if they want to leave the Eurozone: definitely. All countries in the Eurozone are democratic. Nobody is opposing this referendum. It might have been only wiser to have this referendum before the aid program finished on June 30th. Before June 30th, the greek government could have used a 'NO' as much as a 'YES' to achieve an even better deal and the prolongation of the second aid program.
As this second aid program is not longer existent, it doesn't make really sense to let the greek people decide wether they would except the results of the negotiations of the second aid program.
Next monday, after the election, the negotations for the third aid program start at point zero, ALL EU countries need to have their democratic elected parliaments decide wether there will be further aid for greece.
340 Million people live in the Eurozone, 11 Million people live in greece, would it be really democratic if the greek people decide that all the other people in the Eurozone pay for greece with their taxes? Would it be wise to have that democratic election in Portugal, Lithuania and other countries which have already gone through these painful programs successfully?
What is the solution?
If greece votes 'NO' and leaves the Eurozone, there will be a even worse humanitarian crisis, which would cause, naturally, further help programs.
If greece votes 'YES', the Syriza government will resign (maybe), and a within a few weeks, there could be elections, the polls say, that Syria will win again.
As everybody is discussing these topics, no changes in greece tax system or public sector are achieved, all suggestions by the greek government during
the negotiations will only put to order when the Eurozone prolongs the second aid program and pays more money.
Next monday or tuesday, greece will not have any money, the ATM's will be empty.
As a tax payer, I would say: let them go, as a european, I hope we achieve that they stay in the EU and in the eurozone.
Jan, I wouldn't call you Darth Vader. IMO Germans have already paid too high a price for the ambitions of your government. I'm Italian born and hate the EU and its core philosophy. As if socialism and communism weren't enough now Europe has to deal with globalists. In the long run the Greeks could be better off outside the EU if they manage find their path back to independence from other people's money. In reality jobless figures are pretty pathetic in the US and covered up by the government in the way they publish their figures. Greece's billions is peanuts compared to our national debt of tens of trillions, we wouldn't be any better off than Greece without printing trillions to buy our own debt back from the creditors!
david
Christian, if you ever spent time in Greece pre EU you'd know that life in the 3rd world has a lot of advantages… The individual rights and freedoms we've all lost to our so called democracy and 1st world civilization is the real prison!
david
Last edited: