Having a "You are there " compared to "They are here " system

Mdp632

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Not sure how to describe this but, I'll try based on my limited experience.

Hoping for some good feedback and postings.

If one has a system in which they feel that the performer/artists is playing in front of them.

But, is looking to get a feeling of "Being there" rather than experience of "They are here in the room with me"

Where does one start? Or is this nonsense?

I assume it's the room/speaker interaction as a larger transducer or different type such an Omnidirectional (MBL) could provide that experience.

Thoughts?
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NorthStar

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A quality live music recording can reproduce a verisimilitude of being there in the here, present @ the live music concert event, row G, seats # 156-157 (two lovers).

If the music recording was made in a studio or a computer, just forget it.

And I agree with Kal; a multichannel live music recording reproduced by a multichannel sound system (3.0 to 5.1) well setup can put you right in there even more here. More channels (speakers) is better than stereo two. And for studio recordings you can get more immersed, for more listening fun, when artistically engineered of course (to personal taste).

Others swear by horns, some by electrostats, planar-magnetic speakers, ...
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bang-olufsen-beolab-90-loudspeaker

But first it's the music recording, than the room, the setup, ...
Without a quality live music recording ...
And being there in the studio with the musicians wearing headphones is a total different ball game.
 
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bonzo75

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Not sure how to describe this but, I'll try based on my limited experience.

Hoping for some good feedback and postings.

If one has a system in which they feel that the performer/artists is playing in front of them.

But, is looking to get a feeling of "Being there" rather than experience of "They are here in the room with me"

Where does one start? Or is this nonsense?

I assume it's the room/speaker interaction as a larger transducer or different type such an Omnidirectional (MBL) could provide that experience.

Thoughts?

Don't you have audionet stern, Heisenberg, and YG. Best such experience I had was combining a Lampi Pacific with 242 tubes with that exact same audionet gear. I heard it well over a month ago at heihei's place and have been obsessed since as that combination of electronics can knock me off my sensitive SETs horns routes, and YG I actually like, though I could have any linear speaker that can be driven by Heisenberg in that combination, but YG with subs will be preferable. Problem is it that audionet stuff is too expensive for me so I won't go there.

I haven't heard concert hall ambience done as good, by memory only at Mike's.

But not taking into account a specific example, on a general basis, if you good recordings with concert hall ambience, then letting those recordings show through via transparent gear that does not force a soundstage or imaging is the way to go. In solid state Soulution pre or Dartzeel pre, for example, will help that. A Koetsu jade, for example, will make the first recording sound very impressive, but each recording will sound similar. If you start getting constantness across performances, leave the gear behind. A good exercise is if you listen to a pair of devore orangutans with a simple SET amp like new audio frontier, you might not get the bass or weight of a Wilson Alexandria on your first recording, but you will be surprised how much as you change LPs, you are transported to different concert halls. However you need to have good LPs across labels to do these kind of tests. This the reason I preferred devore over Lansche in the same room, though Lansche did much better soundstage or bass, but it was constant across recordings with performers being here

There were previous threads on transparency to recordings. Only a few correctly interpreted that phrase, most who had not experienced it got lost with see through transparency, resolution, detail, etc
 

Tango

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Here is my thoughts. An excellent set up system can have it both ways depending on the recording. There are threads already talk about this. I would like to bring up another type of presentation. I call it a giant "crystal ball" type of sound. This is the kind of sound that I hear from so many mega systems with cones that almost has it. The sound in this category is the one that has exceptional resolution portraying unbelievable holographic sound scene with every tiny cues, room boundary, etc. Extremely impressive if you don't think much about it. You hear it as if you looking at a giant crystal ball that magically show you the overall sound in that recording venue. But so far I have not heard a single system with this presentation that does not sound "detached." There is a sense of detachment between you listening in front and the instruments being played although the experience is intoxicating. Sounds from instruments from the crystal ball just do not reach you or radiate to you individually un-homogeneously like live sound...almost like the sound wave from each instrument just die down when it reach the imaginary line between speakers. The presentation also lead you to enjoy the holography rather than the instruments that should be reaching to you and pull you into the performance. So this is a "fake" you-are-there. The you-are-there is when you are fooled into hearing so much venue with all ambient all cues and instruments radiating sound to you...no detachment...not looking at crystal ball. The crystal ball presentation simply cannot do they-are-here because of the detachment.

I might not get my point across well. But I do believe many of us in this forum have experienced this intoxicating crystal ball sound and understand what I am talking about. I am not saying it is not good or inferior to other type sound. In fact I had many memorable moments listening to these systems..very enjoyable. My system cannot portray this kind of holography but can both the you-are-there and they-are-here.

Just some thoughts,
Tang
 

Duke LeJeune

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... looking to get a feeling of "Being there" rather than experience of "They are here in the room with me"

In the listening room there is, in effect, a "competition" between the acoustic signature of the venue on the recording (whether real or engineered or both), and the acoustic signature of the room you are listening in. Let's call these the "First Venue" and the "Second Venue". When the First Venue cues dominate (and all else is good), "you are there." When the Second Venue cues dominate (and all else is good), "they are here." In general, getting the First Venue cues to dominate is easier said than done, as the Second Venue cues naturally tend to dominate in most home listening rooms.

It is something that I have been involved with for years. It can be achieved most easily by moving from stereo to multichannel.

Even though I'm a two-channel guy, Kal is absolutely correct. The dedicated side/rear channels are designed to present the First Venue's acoustic signature more effectively than two channel is designed to.

But some two-channel systems still do a pretty good job of it. This is something I have been involved with for years, and it calls for the First Venue's cues to be effectively presented, while the Second Venue's cues are minimized. We'll come back to this in a minute.

Kal, I HOPE you will go into a bit more detail about the how's and why's of a good multichannel system in this context. Not that I'm necessarily thinking of "changing religions"... but in audio, sometimes it's good to have an "open canon".

I assume it's the room/speaker interaction as a larger transducer or different type such an Omnidirectional (MBL) could provide that experience.

You are on the right track! In my experience good polydirectional (credit to the late great Richard Shahinian for the term) systems - dipoles, bipoles, omnis, etc. - tend to do a good job of presenting the First Venue cues effectively, assuming proper set-up. A good "conventional" system can also do a good job of presenting the First Venue cues effectively, but in addition to proper set-up, room acoustic treatment tends to play a larger larger role than with polydirectionals, at least in my opinion... speaking of which, consider everything that follows to simply be my opinion.

The end result will be inevitably recording-dependent, but let's give 'em all the best chance we reasonably can, by effectively presenting the First Venue cues while disrupting the Second Venue cues.

In order for the First Venue cues to be effectively presented, they need to be strong enough for us to hear them; they need to be easily recognizable by the ear; they need to arrive from many different directions; and they need to not die away too quickly.

The First Venue cues are of course included in the direct sound, but that's arguably the worst possible direction for reflections to come from. Fortunately they are also included in the reflected energy in the room. The ear/brain system can pick out those First Venue ambience cues from the reflections in the listening room based on their spectral content, and connect them to the appropriate first-arrival sounds. Timbre is also enriched along the way.

First Venue cues "strong enough for us to hear them" means that we need a fair amount of reverberant energy, which implies wide pattern or polydirectional speakers and/or a room that is not overdamped. The latter helps insure that they "don't die away too quickly". And the wide/polydirectional pattern + ideally a lot of diffusion = the First Venue cues "arrive from many different directions."

In order for the First Venue cues to be "easily recognizable by the ear", they must be spectrally correct. This implies that the spectral balance of the off-axis energy is similar to the spectral balance of the first-arrival sound, AND that the room doesn't over-absorb the short wavelengths (high frequencies) and correspondingly degrade the spectral balance of the reverberant energy. Of course we want to avoid slap echo, so there's a balance we're looking for, and in general diffusion serves that goal better than absorption.

But imo this is only HALF the battle.

The other half is, we want to weaken and/or disrupt the "Second Venue" cues - that is, the inherent acoustic signature of the listening room.

Undesirable Second Venue "small room signature" is stongly conveyed by the earliest reflections, and the earlier the stronger that effect. So we want to avoid early reflections as much as possible; and/or diffuse them such that they are not strong and distinct ("specular"); and/or aborb them uniformly. The latter cannot be accomplished by a few inches of foam, which soaks up the short wavelengths but has little effect on longer ones, and thereby screws up the spectral balance of the reflections. We want the reflections to decay fairly slowly (though not too slowly), as quick decay is another source of "small room signature", which is another reason to use something other than absorption to address the early reflections, where possible.

If we can impose a significant delay on the strong onset of reflections, and push that inrush of reflections back in time somewhat, we can disrupt the "small room signature" cues by introducing contradictory "somewhat larger room" cues. An example of this would be, putting those MBL's you mentioned far away from all of the walls, such that it takes a while for the reflections off the walls to reach the listening area. This relatively late-onset inrush of reverberant energy contradicts the normal "small room signature" cues we would otherwise get. So we end up with relatively indistinct Second Venue cues, which makes it more likely that our effectively-presented First Venue cues will dominate. Thus MBLs and Maggies and such are capable of doing "you are there" quite well with proper set-up, and we easily hear the different "there's" from one recording to the next, which indicates the First Venue is indeed dominant, rather than an enhanced (by the longer reflection paths) Second Venue. With more conventional speakers the same principles apply, including: Minimize the early reflections (via diffusion or angled reflectors or whatever) while cultivating the late ones.

Compared with all the cues we'd get in the actual venue, even the best stereo system presents us with a poverty of First Venue cues. The ear takes in all of these different and often contradictory cues and constructs a "best fit" impression of the acoustic space we are in. If we have effectively presented the First Venue cues while minimizing the Second Venue cues, with a good recording that "best fit" may well end up being a reasonable facsimile of the acoustic space of the recording (again, whether real or engineered or both).

I'm not saying this is the ONLY thing that goes into a "you are there"-capable system, but it's arguably one of the things. And, note that a professional acoustician can make a small room behave like a much larger and better space.

Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
 
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bonzo75

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I am a big fan of multi channel and seriously explored datasat auro 3d and atmos, one demo being a 14.4 B&W system. Ultimately analog, Lampi, sets and horns and panels won me over to stereo. That said, with Altec, Danley, and the likes, a high efficiency multichannel is possible for those who have the room. Also heard a vivid giya G1 5 channel without any correction, only all placed at the same distance.
 

microstrip

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(...) But I do believe many of us in this forum have experienced this intoxicating crystal ball sound and understand what I am talking about. I am not saying it is not good or inferior to other type sound. In fact I had many memorable moments listening to these systems..very enjoyable. My system cannot portray this kind of holography but can both the you-are-there and they-are-here.

Just some thoughts,
Tang

Yes, I have listened to it many times - in poorly set-up systems, mostly at shows, where brands are not selected to create an integrated system, but by distributor arrangements. I can create this crystal ball effect with the XLF's if I want to do it to impress friends ... :) Typically it happens when the boundaries of the soundstage do not manage to escape from the space between the speakers and we we have too much resolution in a small space or excess of detail in general. Such systems usually lack "fluidity".

IMHO any type of speaker can suffer from it - large Martin Logan's for example easily fall in that category. I think it is mostly a system matter, not a speaker property. A similar discussion can be carried on digital versus analogue.

When I had the Alexandria X2 I had to select components very carefully to avoid such effect, one good point of the XLF's is that they are much less selective of ancillaries, something that makes choices harder.

I also feel that you are there and they are there depends mostly on the recording, although some kind of systems illuminate the recording in a way that it is there are there all the time.
 

morricab

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Not sure how to describe this but, I'll try based on my limited experience.

Hoping for some good feedback and postings.

If one has a system in which they feel that the performer/artists is playing in front of them.

But, is looking to get a feeling of "Being there" rather than experience of "They are here in the room with me"

Where does one start? Or is this nonsense?

I assume it's the room/speaker interaction as a larger transducer or different type such an Omnidirectional (MBL) could provide that experience.

Thoughts?
It should depend on the recording...if your system is all one way or the other then perhaps it requires reassessment of your system.
 

Tango

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Yes, I have listened to it many times - in poorly set-up systems, mostly at shows, where brands are not selected to create an integrated system, but by distributor arrangements. I can create this crystal ball effect with the XLF's if I want to do it to impress friends ... :) Typically it happens when the boundaries of the soundstage do not manage to escape from the space between the speakers and we we have too much resolution in a small space or excess of detail in general. Such systems usually lack "fluidity".

IMHO any type of speaker can suffer from it - large Martin Logan's for example easily fall in that category. I think it is mostly a system matter, not a speaker property. A similar discussion can be carried on digital versus analogue.

When I had the Alexandria X2 I had to select components very carefully to avoid such effect, one good point of the XLF's is that they are much less selective of ancillaries, something that makes choices harder.

I also feel that you are there and they are there depends mostly on the recording, although some kind of systems illuminate the recording in a way that it is there are there all the time.
Do you still listen to your Soundlab? I have never heard them in real before. Only recently heard from the video Bonzo sent me. On chamber solo violin, that Soundlab had incredible presence. So much clarity and energy radiating creating they-are-here. Must sound really good in real.
 

Ron Resnick

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It should depend on the recording...if your system is all one way or the other then perhaps it requires reassessment of your system.

Does it also depend on the nature of the musical performance? Is girl with guitar and small jazz ensemble more likely to sound like “they are here,” and is large symphony orchestra more likely to sound like “you are there”?

Maybe yes, but maybe not primarily because of the nature of the musical performance, but, rather, because of the way that girl with guitar and small jazz ensembles are recorded versus the way that large symphony orchestra performances are recorded.

Maybe closely-mic’ed recording techniques tend to create “they are here,” and more widely-spaced, large stage recording techniques tend to create “you are there”?
 

treitz3

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I personally think that the recording has much to do with what is perceived. FWIW

Tom
 

Lagonda

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Here is my thoughts. An excellent set up system can have it both ways depending on the recording. There are threads already talk about this. I would like to bring up another type of presentation. I call it a giant "crystal ball" type of sound. This is the kind of sound that I hear from so many mega systems with cones that almost has it. The sound in this category is the one that has exceptional resolution portraying unbelievable holographic sound scene with every tiny cues, room boundary, etc. Extremely impressive if you don't think much about it. You hear it as if you looking at a giant crystal ball that magically show you the overall sound in that recording venue. But so far I have not heard a single system with this presentation that does not sound "detached." There is a sense of detachment between you listening in front and the instruments being played although the experience is intoxicating. Sounds from instruments from the crystal ball just do not reach you or radiate to you individually un-homogeneously like live sound...almost like the sound wave from each instrument just die down when it reach the imaginary line between speakers. The presentation also lead you to enjoy the holography rather than the instruments that should be reaching to you and pull you into the performance. So this is a "fake" you-are-there. The you-are-there is when you are fooled into hearing so much venue with all ambient all cues and instruments radiating sound to you...no detachment...not looking at crystal ball. The crystal ball presentation simply cannot do they-are-here because of the detachment.

I might not get my point across well. But I do believe many of us in this forum have experienced this intoxicating crystal ball sound and understand what I am talking about. I am not saying it is not good or inferior to other type sound. In fact I had many memorable moments listening to these systems..very enjoyable. My system cannot portray this kind of holography but can both the you-are-there and they-are-here.

Just some thoughts,
Tang
Bravo Tango !
You are hereby my favorite audio reviewer
 
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Tango

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Does it also depend on the nature of the musical performance? Is girl with guitar and small jazz ensemble more likely to sound like “they are here,” and is large symphony orchestra more likely to sound like “you are there”?

Maybe yes, but maybe not primarily because of the nature of the musical performance, but, rather, because of the way that girl with guitar and small jazz ensembles are recorded versus the way that large symphony orchestra performances are recorded.

Maybe closely-mic’ed recording techniques tend to create “they are here,” and more widely-spaced, large stage recording techniques tend to create “you are there”?
Not really imo. It is less about whether a solo, a small assemble or large orchestra. It is more about recording venue and technique used to record. A solo piano or a girl with guitar should sound very different in a church or at Blues Alley versus a heavily dampened recording studio. In a church the system should transport you to hear her there. In a pitch black dampened super quiet studio the girl should be able to be in your room. So many old jazz recordings you can hear and sense the ambient even when they were in a recording studio. So it is still more like you were there in the studio with the band not they were in your room.
 
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Alrainbow

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My view is a few things need to happen.
My setup is a midway speaker location and I sit at just 8 feet almost like a near field setup.
My room is 55 deep and 20 wide but my speakers are about 18 to 20 feet off the front wall. so the venue or studio is all around me. Now on classically recordings I sit back much further to get they are hear. Smaller venues closer is better. Now one item is paramount in that making our system neutral meaning not tuned to any one genre is best. each recording must be its own.
 

Whbgarrett

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Does it also depend on the nature of the musical performance? Is girl with guitar and small jazz ensemble more likely to sound like “they are here,” and is large symphony orchestra more likely to sound like “you are there”?

Maybe yes, but maybe not primarily because of the nature of the musical performance, but, rather, because of the way that girl with guitar and small jazz ensembles are recorded versus the way that large symphony orchestra performances are recorded.

Maybe closely-mic’ed recording techniques tend to create “they are here,” and more widely-spaced, large stage recording techniques tend to create “you are there”?
This hits the nail on the head, at least in my experience. As someone who used to record live music (mostly jazz) as an amateur, my experience was that a recording made with a single stereo pair of mics in an ORTF configuration always captured more of the venue than did close mic recordings. The former puts you in the hall, the latter brings the performance into your listening room. Another case in point; if you listen to both a soundboard and audience recording of a given Grateful Dead concert, the same difference obtains. I have often observed that a soundboard recording sounds as though the band is playing in your listening room, while an audience recording sounds like you are at the concert.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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'you are there' <-> 'they are here' differences can come from a number of variables. and it's a relative thing, and depends on what your reference is.

it can be media based, source based, amplifier based, speaker and room based.

my system building direction did always focus on low noise and distortion, very extended bottom octaves, along with ultimate room <-> speaker synergy. this does tend to allow for the 'you are there' event re-creation direction. the venue laid out in front of me. no walls, just the event.

yet when i inserted the Lamm ML3 amplifiers, there was a change toward a much greater 'they are here' sort of presentation in a relative sense. higher noise, less rendering of the far sound stage reaches, more forward images. more about the music itself and it's weight and tone, less about the wider event. all in degrees of course, no absolutes.

thirdly; my Saskia model two turntable has a touch of this effect too, but it's quite different. in the case of the Saskia i don't lose ambient information, but the images do tend to be slightly more forward and holographic, which does make it more of a 'they are here' presentation.

and lastly as my system has progressed more and more each recording has it's own unique influence on this presentation balance.
 

morricab

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'you are there' <-> 'they are here' differences can come from a number of variables. and it's a relative thing, and depends on what your reference is.

it can be media based, source based, amplifier based, speaker and room based.

my system building direction did always focus on low noise and distortion, very extended bottom octaves, along with ultimate room <-> speaker synergy. this does tend to allow for the 'you are there' event re-creation direction. the venue laid out in front of me. no walls, just the event.

yet when i inserted the Lamm ML3 amplifiers, there was a change toward a much greater 'they are here' sort of presentation in a relative sense. higher noise, less rendering of the far sound stage reaches, more forward images. more about the music itself and it's weight and tone, less about the wider event. all in degrees of course, no absolutes.

thirdly; my Saskia model two turntable has a touch of this effect too, but it's quite different. in the case of the Saskia i don't lose ambient information, but the images do tend to be slightly more forward and holographic, which does make it more of a 'they are here' presentation.

and lastly as my system has progressed more and more each recording has it's own unique influence on this presentation balance.
So, you don’t think your current setup is somewhat biased towards “you are there”?

You should try a quieter SET. They don’t have to be biased towards “they are here” although I know many that do.
 

Alrainbow

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When a system is setup well meaning balanced the sitting position for me makes it your there or they are here.
At 8 feet they are here if the recording allows it. Further back makes it become we are there. As my place is much deeper I can swap the perception easily. Close mic recordings do have more of they are here I feel. But simple two mic like some classical is more I am there. But classical large scale I like it better further back. If up close on some of these it takes away from the scale of venue
 

andromedaaudio

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When a system is setup well meaning balanced the sitting position for me makes it your there or they are here.
At 8 feet they are here if the recording allows it. Further back makes it become we are there. As my place is much deeper I can swap the perception easily. Close mic recordings do have more of they are here I feel. But simple two mic like some classical is more I am there. But classical large scale I like it better further back. If up close on some of these it takes away from the scale of venue

Wow love your system , incl the big 33 s

I wanna have an all ref ML old school system at one time
 

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