Help me choose a Conrad Johnson pre-power

[Pani]

Friends,
I currently use a superb Wavac EC-300B SET amplifier. Whereas I thought this will probably be a very long term purchase, my Tannoy Turnberry speakers seems not very happy with the 10 odd watts that the Wavac produces. At this point I may have to give up the amazing Wavac and look around for a more powerful valve amplification.

I recently heard a CJ classic preamp + Premier 11 power amp driving a Tannoy and it was superb. I did not really expect a high powered tube amp to have such speed and coherence. I have come from the Naim/Linn background so speed and timing is paramount to me. That CJ combination did everything that a Naim does but infused a glow and natural warmth that only a valve can do. The Wavac I use takes it to the next level by making it even more transparent and pure. However it probably doesnt feel at home with my 93 db sensitive speakers.

When I look at the CJ line of equipments I feel lost among so many models. My budget is about $10k for a pre-power combination. I am more inclined to buy pre-owned so even the discontinued models can considered.

Based on some research I have done on internet, here are the options:

Preamps:
1. Classic SE
2. ET3 SE
3. ET5

Power amps:
1. Premier 11
2. Premier 12
3. Classic 60SE
4. LP125m
5. LP125sa

At this point the last thing I want is a mismatch in pre-power combination. I do not exactly know which pre-power combination would give me the best bang for the $10k sum.
The most obvious combination to me is the ET3 SE + Classic 60SE. Both are current models and matched to each other by the company. However my budget might permit me to go with ET5 or LP125m too. That is where I need help from the more experienced members here.

Please help me choose a pre-power from Conrad Johnson.

BTW, I listen to all kinds of music from Mozart to Metallica.

 

[microstrip]

Friends,
I currently use a superb Wavac EC-300B SET amplifier. Whereas I thought this will probably be a very long term purchase, my Tannoy Turnberry speakers seems not very happy with the 10 odd watts that the Wavac produces. At this point I may have to give up the amazing Wavac and look around for a more powerful valve amplification.

I recently heard a CJ classic preamp + Premier 11 power amp driving a Tannoy and it was superb. I did not really expect a high powered tube amp to have such speed and coherence. I have come from the Naim/Linn background so speed and timing is paramount to me. That CJ combination did everything that a Naim does but infused a glow and natural warmth that only a valve can do. The Wavac I use takes it to the next level by making it even more transparent and pure. However it probably doesnt feel at home with my 93 db sensitive speakers.

When I look at the CJ line of equipments I feel lost among so many models. My budget is about $10k for a pre-power combination. I am more inclined to buy pre-owned so even the discontinued models can considered.

Based on some research I have done on internet, here are the options:

Preamps:
1. Classic SE
2. ET3 SE
3. ET5

Power amps:
1. Premier 11
2. Premier 12
3. Classic 60SE
4. LP125m
5. LP125sa

At this point the last thing I want is a mismatch in pre-power combination. I do not exactly know which pre-power combination would give me the best bang for the $10k sum.
The most obvious combination to me is the ET3 SE + Classic 60SE. Both are current models and matched to each other by the company. However my budget might permit me to go with ET5 or LP125m too. That is where I need help from the more experienced members here.

Please help me choose a pre-power from Conrad Johnson.

BTW, I listen to all kinds of music from Mozart to Metallica.

If you are considering pre-owned gear my advice would be the CT5 and the LP125m combo. IMHO the CT5 was the best quality/price ratio in cj preamplifiers (I compared it with the ACT2, ACT2 series 2 and ART2), and the LP125m's are great amplifiers. Monoblock amplifiers usually have an effortless quality irrespectively of power and cj is not an exception to this rule. BTW, Tannoy speakers are efficient, but love power.

 

[ddk]

Friends,
I currently use a superb Wavac EC-300B SET amplifier. Whereas I thought this will probably be a very long term purchase, my Tannoy Turnberry speakers seems not very happy with the 10 odd watts that the Wavac produces. At this point I may have to give up the amazing Wavac and look around for a more powerful valve amplification.

I recently heard a CJ classic preamp + Premier 11 power amp driving a Tannoy and it was superb. I did not really expect a high powered tube amp to have such speed and coherence. I have come from the Naim/Linn background so speed and timing is paramount to me. That CJ combination did everything that a Naim does but infused a glow and natural warmth that only a valve can do. The Wavac I use takes it to the next level by making it even more transparent and pure. However it probably doesnt feel at home with my 93 db sensitive speakers.

When I look at the CJ line of equipments I feel lost among so many models. My budget is about $10k for a pre-power combination. I am more inclined to buy pre-owned so even the discontinued models can considered.

Based on some research I have done on internet, here are the options:

Preamps:
1. Classic SE
2. ET3 SE
3. ET5

Power amps:
1. Premier 11
2. Premier 12
3. Classic 60SE
4. LP125m
5. LP125sa

At this point the last thing I want is a mismatch in pre-power combination. I do not exactly know which pre-power combination would give me the best bang for the $10k sum.
The most obvious combination to me is the ET3 SE + Classic 60SE. Both are current models and matched to each other by the company. However my budget might permit me to go with ET5 or LP125m too. That is where I need help from the more experienced members here.

Please help me choose a pre-power from Conrad Johnson.

BTW, I listen to all kinds of music from Mozart to Metallica.

Contrary to popular belief Tannoys have never been SET friendly, even the early Monitor Reds and Golds need some current to get their large cones going. I'm not familiar with your particular speaker but I know a thing or two about both vintage and modern Tannoys. Even with the legendary Monitor Golds that were much lighter and more efficient than their current drivers needed quality ss amplification to come life and show how dynamic they really are. The 10" Monitor Reds in the Cornettas were the only exception to the rule. My point here is that you should try your speakers with some quality ss amplification before settling on tubes. The big difference will be the quality of your bass. Pleasant but fat and colored with tubes or dynamic and detailed with ss. Try it.

 

[KeithR]

I think you could get a great speaker to go with that amazing Wavac. The CJs you are looking at are a clear step down imo.

If not, I would look towards Melody SET, properly retubed. The AN845 would sound very good and be well within budget.

 

[ddk]

I think you could get a great speaker to go with that amazing Wavac. The CJs you are looking at are a clear step down imo.

If not, I would look towards Melody SET, properly retubed. The AN845 would sound very good and be well within budget.

The problem with the EC-300B is that its a flea weight amp even if Wavac claims differently. I don't know of any quality full range speakers in his budget that the Wavacs could drive properly. His other choice to keep the Wavacs would be be bi-amping and that opens up a whole new can of worms to get right and not with his Tannoys.

Never heard the Melody or any of the CJ gear listed here, so no comment there, but in general a SET isn't the best choice if you want more than just a pleasant sound with this speaker.

david

 

[mep]

Once again I always find it interesting when someone starts a thread asking for very specific recommendations (i.e; tube preamps, tube power amps, SS preamps, SS power amps, electrostatics, etc.) and people come back with recommendations for everything except what the OP asked for. In this case, Pani asked for some very specific recommendations for CJ preamps and power amps that he could buy either new or used for $10K that would work together quite well and with his speakers.

micro (Francisco) provided a recommendation for a CJ preamp and power amp combination he thought would sound really good. The second poster recommended a SS amp. The third poster told him to keep his current amp and ditch his speakers. The fourth poster reiterated what the OP already knew, and that was the fact his current SE amp was not a good match for his speakers.

Kudos to micro for actually providing recommendations based on experience for CJ combos that would work together well and possibly make the OP happy. I'm surprised that Myles hasn't jumped in here yet and given his recommendations because Myles has lots of experience with CJ tube gear. Good luck Pani, I hope you find some CJ gear that will make you happy with your speakers.

 

[ddk]

Once again I always find it interesting when someone starts a thread asking for very specific recommendations (i.e; tube preamps, tube power amps, SS preamps, SS power amps, electrostatics, etc.) and people come back with recommendations for everything except what the OP asked for. In this case, Pani asked for some very specific recommendations for CJ preamps and power amps that he could buy either new or used for $10K that would work together quite well and with his speakers.

micro (Francisco) provided a recommendation for a CJ preamp and power amp combination he thought would sound really good. The second poster recommended a SS amp. The third poster told him to keep his current amp and ditch his speakers. The fourth poster reiterated what the OP already knew, and that was the fact his current SE amp was not a good match for his speakers.

Kudos to micro for actually providing recommendations based on experience for CJ combos that would work together well and possibly make the OP happy. I'm surprised that Myles hasn't jumped in here yet and given his recommendations because Myles has lots of experience with CJ tube gear. Good luck Pani, I hope you find some CJ gear that will make you happy with your speakers.

And the value of this post to the OP is?

 

[puroagave]

Based on some research I have done on internet, here are the options:

Preamps:
1. Classic SE
2. ET3 SE
3. ET5

I recently had an ET3 , ET3 SE and ET5 in my system used with both tube and ss amps. hands down the ET5 is the best of the lot and worth the extra swag.

 

[puroagave]

Contrary to popular belief Tannoys have never been SET friendly, even the early Monitor Reds and Golds need some current to get their large cones going.

my good friend has Churchill Widebands and they never sounded better than with the airtight ATM-211 (SET amps) I guess it depends on the amp.

 

[mep]

And the value of this post to the OP is?

Hopefully that Myles (and others) will join in and provide recommendations based on their experience and knowledge of the CJ product line and for other people to think twice about providing recommendations for gear which had nothing to do with what the OP was asking for. This happens all the time on audio forums.

 

[Gregadd]

I am a past owner of various cj components. For a price you can get all the power you need. I owned the 50 to 70 watt versions The premier 11a Pv 12 are excellent used buy. The newer the newer products refrigerated power and premium parts. Myles reviewed the GAT series for pro. I am he will help. Reliability , Built like the proverbial brick outhouse.

 

[ddk]

my good friend has Churchill Widebands and they never sounded better than with the airtight ATM-211 (SET amps) I guess it depends on the amp.

Depends on what he had before, what he listens to, what his expectation are, nor does it mean that he can't do better with another amp.

 

[ddk]

Hopefully that Myles (and others) will join in and provide recommendations based on their experience and knowledge of the CJ product line and for other people to think twice about providing recommendations for gear which had nothing to do with what the OP was asking for. This happens all the time on audio forums.

I still don't see how this helps the OP, all you're saying is that only your mavens should have an opinion here. Obviously you have no direct experience with Tannoys otherwise you'd know why I recommended the OP to try ss before jumping in with tubes, where's the harm of that?
Besides doesn't CJ make ss amps?

david

 

[mep]

I still don't see how this helps the OP, all you're saying is that only your mavens should have an opinion here.

That's not true at all Dave. Micro already posted his thoughts, I said Myles could certainly provide some good advice based on his experience, and possibly others who have experience with CJ products the OP was interested in.

Obviously you have no direct experience with Tannoys otherwise you'd know why I recommended the OP to try ss before jumping in with tubes, where's the harm of that?
Besides doesn't CJ make ss amps?

david

David-You are exactly right that I don't have direct experience with Tannoy speakers. I don't even have indirect experience with them nor did I claim to and make any recommendations. And yes, CJ does make some SS amps, but the OP asked for recommendations for CJ tube amps. My comment was just a general comment about how some people respond to requests for recommendations.

 

[LL21]

I have owned CJ pv14l, mv60, ACT2 and now GAT...consecutively over the last 14 years, so a big CJ fan. tannoys will enjoy current I suspect. If u love tubes, the question you are asking is where to put your money at this stage...more towards pre or towards power. My two cents:

1. If you can stretch past 10K as you suggest and will buy demo...Agon has a dealer selling ET5 and LP125sa at the moment for $15K...maybe buying both you get a break. That gets you your entire wish list right now. Buying 2nd hand on Agon instead of demo, you can hit your budget of 10K plus a smidgen.

2. If you only wish for new, I think go with more juice...go with lp125. The so called lesser CJ pres are still great...but i think he mv60 may be extremely good but not GREAt with something that enjoys power. ET3SE is supposedly sensational.

3. If u like the mv60...you could also get 2 secondhand and monoblock them which i was told when I considered it is quite easy.

Good luck...my 2 cents

 

[pstrisik]

Hi Pani,

You should certainly get other opinions as you may see mine as biased since I'm currently selling a pair of LP125M. But, FWIW, here's what I think......

I have a Premier 11A, which you say you have listened to, and a 10wpc Dennis Had "Inspire" single ended design. Since I'm exploring the single ended, low power world, I needed to let go of either the monos or the 11A. Mostly for practical reasons, ie, space, I'm selling the monos. I've run them with both a C-J Premier 17LS and a Cary SLP-05 (my current pre). Both amps have their pros. If you like a more modern sound - clear, transparent, better extension on both ends, but still a warmer/smoother sound than most SS, or if you need more power, the 125's have the edge. The 11A is a bit mellower and warmer - a nice rich sound. Highs are slightly rolled off in comparison.

Both amps were originally designed for 6550 power tubes. In more recent years, CJ has opted to ship with KT120s. That is what I've been running in both. More punch and extension than the 6550 which tend to be a bit slower.

If you are at all interested in used 125's, I have them on Audiogon - user name there is ZekeB. I won't post a link as that is usually prohibited on forums; I hope referencing AG isn't.

Best......... Peter

 

[KeithR]

Once again I always find it interesting when someone starts a thread asking for very specific recommendations (i.e; tube preamps, tube power amps, SS preamps, SS power amps, electrostatics, etc.) and people come back with recommendations for everything except what the OP asked for. In this case, Pani asked for some very specific recommendations for CJ preamps and power amps that he could buy either new or used for $10K that would work together quite well and with his speakers.

micro (Francisco) provided a recommendation for a CJ preamp and power amp combination he thought would sound really good. The second poster recommended a SS amp. The third poster told him to keep his current amp and ditch his speakers. The fourth poster reiterated what the OP already knew, and that was the fact his current SE amp was not a good match for his speakers.

Kudos to micro for actually providing recommendations based on experience for CJ combos that would work together well and possibly make the OP happy. I'm surprised that Myles hasn't jumped in here yet and given his recommendations because Myles has lots of experience with CJ tube gear. Good luck Pani, I hope you find some CJ gear that will make you happy with your speakers.

Mep- hes replacing a 30k amp that many consider state of the art. Read Jack Roberts reviews. If he likes SET sound, the 3500 CJ amp is going to disappoint.

 

[Pani]

Guys I cant thank you enough for getting this discussion go!

First of all I am not from USA, I am from India, the voltages here are 220v. That means I cannot buy a US amp directly (unless someone get it converted for me).

The reason I am going with CJ is purely because I want to play it safe. I have heard the CJ pre-power combination, I am going to hear the ET3 Se and Classic 60Se again very soon. Together I guess I will have a good idea about what I am getting from the CJ lineup. So far I like it a lot! It is true that the Wavac is very special. I have been thinking a lot (and still thinking) whether to let it go or change my speakers. The fact is, Tannoys are also very special. After all speakers decide the voice of your system. It is a lot more difficult to find another speaker which will safely replace the Tannoy than to find an amp that will make good music with the Tannoy. So I am slowly but steadily looking at this change.

Now, among the models being discussed here, the LP125m seems to get a more votes than the classic 60 SE. The conventional wisdom says that lower powered valve amps sound better, isnt it ? Better as in more finesse, more refined and overall more real (provided the speakers are matched). My room size is about 13 ft X 11 ft and I sit about 7 - 8 ft away from the speaker. Isnt a good 60 watter enough to make the Tannoys sing ? Or is it something very special about the LP125m that makes it a much better value ?

Preamp is a an easier choice, either the ET3Se or ET5 or CT5, depending which one I could get a good deal on would do. However I have another question here, I play turntable too and I was thinking of a CJ EV1 phonostage. My nearest CJ dealer told me that he could fit in a CJ phonostage card into the ET3se if I want to. Can any one tell me if the internal phonostage would sound as good or better than a EV1 phonostage ?

 

[ddk]

Now, among the models being discussed here, the LP125m seems to get a more votes than the classic 60 SE. The conventional wisdom says that lower powered valve amps sound better, isnt it ? Better as in more finesse, more refined and overall more real (provided the speakers are matched).

I have found that to be true in some cases but not always, it all depends on the amp.

My room size is about 13 ft X 11 ft and I sit about 7 - 8 ft away from the speaker. Isnt a good 60 watter enough to make the Tannoys sing ?

You better try it before you buy. I don't have your speakers, ie 10" drivers but I've been living with different Tannoy speakers for most of the past 25 years. I can tell you emphatically that I didn't get any Tannoy 12" or 15" driver deliver in the lower frequencies even with great 120 watt tube amps. The 10" might or might not might be easier to drive, you need to find that out by yourself.

Your setup is basically near field and cranking the volume isn't a great option. A 60 watt tube amp can give you a very pleasant sound, great for some jazz and female vocals but its not enough for full range playback. Tannoy claims 25hz for the Turnberry which I think is somewhat optimistic but depending on your room you should easily get as low as 40hz. To get the low frequencies right you need current for Tannoys. You need an amp with enough power and current to deliver the low frequencies at moderate volume level, and that's why I recommended trying solid state amplifier as well. I don't know what you have access to but even a 150 watt Denon will be able to demonstrate what I mean about the low frequency and Tannoy speakers. Good luck.

david

 

[LL21]

The more I think about it...the more I think high current high power adds a lot of value to these speakers. Benefits are not just linearity...it's a fullness even in midrange...because you get much greater dynamic and micro dynamic nuances thru the mids...powerful mids even in jazz can make it quite a beautiful sound. It's not just about tone or mellifluous sound. Also, I think cj's most famous historical amp was their Premier 8...275 watts...their most powerful. They did an XS version which was half the power...but CJ even said they felt SETs sounded good with some speakers but great on few...and I think downright bad on a few. So CJ has been well regarded for their more powerful amps.