Horns....Avantgarde vs. Cessaro

Ron Resnick

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Do other members also corroborate this contrast/difference?

I am sensitive to screechy treble;

I corroborate this contrast/difference generally, yes. I, too, am sensitive to screechy treble.

Every time I have heard an Avantgarde Duo I found it bright and analytical. For me possibly only a very pure and warm-leaning SET amp could tame that sound. (I am perpetually baffled that Avantgarde likes solid-state on their speakers.)

My friend’s Cessaro Zetas do not manifest the brightness and analytical-ness I hear from Avantgarde Duos.

I don’t know anything about the Cessaro Chopin. I do have a general feeling that horn loudspeakers, like planar loudspeakers, tend to need to be on the larger side to work the way we hope for and to “do their thing.”
 
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Argonaut

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[please forgive my poor English]

Interesting, thanks.
Do other members also corroborate this contrast/difference? Or is it so dependent on the partnered equipment (and room) that no generalization can be drawn at all?

(see also question in §2)




PERSONAL PREFERENCES
I attend live acoustic unamplified concerts (mainly classical), and I favor full-bodied, natural presentation and "flow". I am sensitive to screechy treble; I like it highly detailed and highly "various" (not a mono-chromatic tss-tss), but natural and perfectly integrated with the midrange. I like the Raal ribbon tweeter, the Esotar 2&3, but most of all, good AMT tweeter implementations. Compression drivers I know less: I listened attentively to the excellent Thrax Lyra and was a bit puzzled by its compression tweeter (sounds amazingly 'live', but does some "quirky things" I nevertheless could live with would you offer me a pair of Lyra).
I am not a bass-freak (if cello is OK, I'm happy).
I don't know a lot of horn speakers, but all the ones I heard are fatiguing at best, a bit shilly, or blare at worst [those words care maybe too strong; I am a non-native speaker]. The remarkable exception to this is the gob-smacking Aries Cerat Symphonia horn speaker (which does it all, except deep bass), but is totally beyond my budget ($ K100?).​

UPGRADE TOWARD A CHOPIN?
Therefore I wondered if a Cessaro Chopin with their CNC-milled tweeter horn (made out of a solid piece of wood, like the big 50Kg midrange horn of the Symphonia), their half-horn/half bass-reflex bass guide and their heavy enclosure, could not be considered as a kind of "mini-Symphonia" (for smaller rooms, as @morricab suggested).
But...I have never heard Cessaro's (you don't find them on every street corner). And no dealer in my country (but Germany is nearly next door...).​

MIDRANGE IS IMPORTANT
My fear with any 2-way (except Harbeths) is always: where is the midrange? (when I see a 3-way, I am relieved - BUT: I can't afford none of the Cessaro's 3-ways).
For instance, on lieder (voice & piano), a monitor like the little Harbeth M30.2 Anniversary favors voices (very natural and lifelike, full-bodied, fairly expressive with the right amp) over piano (sounds too soft and rounded, lack of speed and attack). But I can live with that contrast (in a 2nd system), whereas I would be very unhappy if a speaker would reverse that contrast, and would deliver all the directness, speed and attack required to reproduce piano in a credible way (fine!), but would play voices leaner instead!​
(the Aries Cerat Symphonia horn speakers, again, subtract nothing of that sheer naturalness on voices, which remain full-bodied, but then gain a breathtaking and genuinely lifelike expressiveness).​

ROOM
The room is 40 square meter; plenty of space around the speakers (no close rear wall possible, as recommended for the Chopin); former stable; very good acoustics; no neighbors; very silent; low ceiling, but small curved ceiling brick vaults.

Thanks.
Hi Oliver,

For my part I do not feel that Cessaro Chopin ( even were you to find a pair for sale within budget ) would really deliver upon which you are seeking , You have been unfortunately poisoned badly in this regard ;)

I would recommend perhaps an Altec based solution with Ferrite 288g and multi cell midrange or 288g Alnico with a metal Vitavox horn, there a number of configurations that may well meet your music predilections and remain within budget, you do have the room also.

There are several audio videos available on the forum and on YouTube for your perusal with a number posted by Kedar.

One left of field suggestion , were you not put off by the somewhat Flash Gordon styling ( which I quite like ) might be the Sadurni Acoustics Staccato which when I last looked were quite reasonably priced. Joshua Masongsong has hands on experience of these horns and might offer more advice .



 

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bonzo75

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I agree, the Chopin is quite poor.
 

DasguteOhr

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I agree, the Chopin is quite poor.
Poor is perhaps the wrong word, they should have used a larger driver from the Supravox family to bring more substance and power to the music playback. I am a big fan of the Beta system. For me it is one of the most harmonious that I know with good tubes
p.s with front loaded bass 74129-122a7fdec871e2c750208dce6c2da55b.jpg
 
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morricab

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Poor is perhaps the wrong word, they should have used a larger driver from the Supravox family to bring more substance and power to the music playback. I am a big fan of the Beta system. For me it is one of the most harmonious that I know with good tubes
It's not the driver. I have the same exact driver in a TQWT loading cabinet (from Supravox) and it has serious power and substance in that cabinet. It must be something around their horn design. When a driver is loaded into a horn like that it is hardly working (I never see mine move even with huge bass impulses or pipe organs) and so if there is not power and substance then something is wrong with the loading or the horn length etc. The driver is actually pretty awesome.
 

DasguteOhr

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It's not the driver. I have the same exact driver in a TQWT loading cabinet (from Supravox) and it has serious power and substance in that cabinet. It must be something around their horn design. When a driver is loaded into a horn like that it is hardly working (I never see mine move even with huge bass impulses or pipe organs) and so if there is not power and substance then something is wrong with the loading or the horn length etc. The driver is actually pretty awesome.
tastes are different I find it intrusive I couldn't listen to this driver to music for long periods of time.
 

bonzo75

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Poor is perhaps the wrong word, they should have used a larger driver from the Supravox family to bring more substance and power to the music playback. I am a big fan of the Beta system. For me it is one of the most harmonious that I know with good tubes
p.s with front loaded bass View attachment 129630

Beta and Chopin are so different. And yes I have heard the Liszt, Opus, Gamma II, and Zeta in private systems, outside Munich. The Beta is more similar in design to the Gamma II. The Beta II that played at Munich had bigger bass horns.
 

DasguteOhr

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In Chopin or other designs?
I have tested in openbaffle too, if you separate the RT 64 below 1khz with a 12db filter the thing sounds excellent harmonically above 1khz there is a 5db jump in sensitivity up to 5khz. That is unbearable for me. you can put notch filter in. I had used it from 80 hz to 1khz.
You need a good horn driver from maybe 800hz -20khz
Exsample 285 gm vs 215 rt SUPRAVOX_215_RTF_64_(Frequency_response).gif
285 SUPRAVOX_285_GMF_(Frequency_response).gif
 
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morricab

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I have tested in openbaffle too, if you separate the RT 64 below 1khz with a 12db filter the thing sounds excellent harmonically above 1khz there is a 5db jump in sensitivity up to 5khz. That is unbearable for me. you can put notch filter in. I had used it from 80 hz to 1khz.
You need a good horn driver from maybe 800hz -20khz
Exsample 285 gm vs 215 rt View attachment 129637
285 View attachment 129638
Mine is the 215-2000 and so is the Cessaro. It wants to be loaded into a horn, which will affect those measurements quite a bit. I got quite flat response from 200 hz to over 10khz….but I cross quite low anyway to a very good compression driver.
 

DasguteOhr

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One my favorite configuration in openbaffle.
18"monacor 25-65hz active ripol bass from 65hz -6000hz supravox 285gmf(~100db) without xover from 6khz-30khz a fostex t 500 (100db)magnesium horndriver with 3.3uf cap. A L pad network (resistors)may need to be added in front of the tweeter. That depends on the room acoustics and the placement of the speakers.
then you have a speaker that leaves little to be desired.

P.S the fostex are expensive but this are one of best horntweeters are made in hifi history
 

christoph

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One my favorite configuration in openbaffle.
18"monacor 25-65hz active ripol bass from 65hz -6000hz supravox 285gmf(~100db) without xover from 6khz-30khz a fostex t 500 (100db)magnesium horndriver with 3.3uf cap. A L pad network (resistors)may need to be added in front of the tweeter. That depends on the room acoustics and the placement of the speakers.
then you have a speaker that leaves little to be desired.

P.S the fostex are expensive but this are one of best horntweeters are made in hifi history
Can you show a picture of that speaker?
 

DasguteOhr

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Can you show a picture of that speaker?
I can only show you what it looks like in principle since I no longer own these speakers. Just imagine a larger opening in the baffle for Fostex horn tweeters. This was attached to the back of the baffle with a clamp ring. This meant you could slide it back and forth to set the correct playback time. At the bottom of the baffle there is a slot for the ripole, which radiates to the front and back (dipoles). exsample pic with active amp module bass. 9265284642_0_g.jpg
ripol 18" afgz5kgkew69v6hi8.jpg
Fostex t 500A heavy beast 5kg FOSTEX_T_500_A_MKII_STUDIO-RINGRADIATOR-1.jpg

My speakers don't look that fancy, just oiled 24 mm birch multiplex baffle only for testing
 
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