How Do I Get The Music In My Room

[Kingrex]

I was posting with Peter in some other threads in an off topic manner. I felt it worth a thread. I don't even know if this is possible with my gear.

I was at a friends with 2 large 8 foot wide by maybe 40 inch tall duel 15" horn woofers based upon Altec thestre design speakers. On top of them were 12 cell wood horns by Chela Audio. I have never been in front of any other stereo where the sound stage put me there on the stage with Simon and Garfunkel or Dylan.

It was without a doubt the most live stereo I ever heard. Amps were nothing special. Good but only $6k or so. Same for phono pre. Techniques SM12 with a Transfiguration Proteus. Yet that stereo made "live" better than any other I heard at a show or house.

I would love to get some semblance of what Howards system does. But I have no idea where to start. His stuff is in a room the size of a double garage. Next to no acoustic treatment's. Its just a totally immersive and enveloping sound stage. It surounds you. Mine is just there in front of me. I'm happy to get width. I don't get depth. To be honest, i never really hear any depth on any stereo. Sometimes a little. Usually from the speaker fronts back. Never from the sides of my head all the way back behind the speakers.

Is this really a big horn, big room trick. Is that why people love big horns. Or can it be done in a living room.

 

[Al M.]

I would love to get some semblance of what Howards system does. But I have no idea where to start. His stuff is in a room the size of a double garage. Next to no acoustic treatment's. Its just a totally immersive and enveloping sound stage. It surounds you. Mine is just there in front of me. I'm happy to get width. I don't get depth. To be honest, i never really hear any depth on any stereo. Sometimes a little. Usually from the speaker fronts back. Never from the sides of my head all the way back behind the speakers.

Obviously I have not heard Howard's system, so I cannot relive your experience, but I would think that I have a totally immersive and enveloping sound stage. I certainly experience it that way, and at least some of my audiophile friends seem to do so too. The music is in front of me, like actual live performers are, but the energy emanates from there and fills the room. Often the performers seem to be "right there", as if really standing or sitting in front of you, like live.

I get TONS of depth too, if it's on the recording. It is usually from the speaker fronts back, and I don't quite follow when you say you get depth "never from the sides of my head all the way back behind the speakers". Again, obviously the performers are in front of me, but due to the energy filling the room the experience is immersive, and depth can go "way, way back there" if it's on the recording.

Yet it depends on the recording. The music can be brutally upfront and in your face, or it can be more recessed, or very much in the back, or a mix of it all.

Is this really a big horn, big room trick. Is that why people love big horns. Or can it be done in a living room.

Nope, it's not a big horn, big room trick. I have a monitor/subwoofer combo. And my room is not large, L 24 ft x W 12 ft (13.5 ft at small window bay) x H 8.5 ft. The depth is helped by the fact that the speaker drivers are 7 feet into the room. I don't think there can be a strict and hard formula if the room needs much treatment or not. It depends on the room. Mine just doesn't perform the "trick" without the extensive acoustic treatment that I have.

 

[DSkip]

From my experience depth is the second hardest thing to recreate with a system. The most difficult is the ability to throw the sound out towards and even behind the listener when the recording calls for it. When this happens you get an incredible atmosphere that even non enthusiasts can hear.

For this type of sound, the speaker is the most important imo. If it’s incapable of doing depth and throwing sound you’ll never get there. High quality and well designed crossovers are critical for this. The second most important is the source. Right now I don’t have a true quality dac in stock to demo. My sound is still getting depth, but it is not being thrown out around the listener the way it does when a good source is in place. All other components obviously matter but they tend to reduce or improve the ability rather than completely nullify it.

The atmosphere created by the Rosso Fiorentino Elba 2 is why I’ve personally been so blown away. If the rest of the system is capable, you can get that sound with a tower that retails under $5k. I have not heard any other speaker (outside of Rosso) that is capable of this same aspect for under five figures. I’ve also heard several above five figures that cannot do it.

This is all to reinforce that you don’t have to spend six figures to get to that sound. It just takes careful system planning and understanding the full potential of each component chosen. Room dimensions don’t matter as much in regards to getting that sound, but if you are stuffing speakers against a wall or in a corner you are going to have serious challenges getting that type of sound.

 

[Al M.]

From my experience depth is the second hardest thing to recreate with a system. The most difficult is the ability to throw the sound out towards and even behind the listener when the recording calls for it. When this happens you get an incredible atmosphere that even non enthusiasts can hear.

Yes, many systems give you a 'card board' window into the music as it were: it's happening "over there", but it's not immersive. You're "looking at" the music, but nothing more.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I was posting with Peter in some other threads in an off topic manner. I felt it worth a thread. I don't even know if this is possible with my gear.

I was at a friends with 2 large 8 foot wide by maybe 40 inch tall duel 15" horn woofers based upon Altec thestre design speakers. On top of them were 12 cell wood horns by Chela Audio. I have never been in front of any other stereo where the sound stage put me there on the stage with Simon and Garfunkel or Dylan.

It was without a doubt the most live stereo I ever heard. Amps were nothing special. Good but only $6k or so. Same for phono pre. Techniques SM12 with a Transfiguration Proteus. Yet that stereo made "live" better than any other I heard at a show or house.

I would love to get some semblance of what Howards system does. But I have no idea where to start. His stuff is in a room the size of a double garage. Next to no acoustic treatment's. Its just a totally immersive and enveloping sound stage. It surounds you. Mine is just there in front of me. I'm happy to get width. I don't get depth. To be honest, i never really hear any depth on any stereo. Sometimes a little. Usually from the speaker fronts back. Never from the sides of my head all the way back behind the speakers.

Is this really a big horn, big room trick. Is that why people love big horns. Or can it be done in a living room.

Welcome to the world of good horns. Not a lot comes remotely close if you get them right and want effortless live sound.

 

[bonzo75]

Howard's cabinets are RCA Ubangis. They are also big theater horns similar to Altec 817. Bigger, more like the Altec 211.

His woofers are EV 15w

 

[wil]

Obviously I have not heard Howard's system, so I cannot relive your experience, but I would think that I have a totally immersive and enveloping sound stage. I certainly experience it that way, and at least some of my audiophile friends seem to do so too. The music is in front of me, like actual live performers are, but the energy emanates from there and fills the room. Often the performers seem to be "right there", as if really standing or sitting in front of you, like live.

I get TONS of depth too, if it's on the recording. It is usually from the speaker fronts back, and I don't quite follow when you say you get depth "never from the sides of my head all the way back behind the speakers". Again, obviously the performers are in front of me, but due to the energy filling the room the experience is immersive, and depth can go "way, way back there" if it's on the recording.

Yet it depends on the recording. The music can be brutally upfront and in your face, or it can be more recessed, or very much in the back, or a mix of it all.



Nope, it's not a big horn, big room trick. I have a monitor/subwoofer combo. And my room is not large, L 24 ft x W 12 ft (13.5 ft at small window bay) x H 8.5 ft. The depth is helped by the fact that the speaker drivers are 7 feet into the room. I don't think there can be a strict and hard formula if the room needs much treatment or not. It depends on the room. Mine just doesn't perform the "trick" without the extensive acoustic treatment that I have.

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but it looks like your speakers are sort of close to the front wall?

 

[Kingrex]

Maybe I need to try pulling my speakers into the room. They are 41" off the wall now. That is where they couple bass well. Howards system crazy throws the sound stage out to you. I am still blown away how Paul Simon really seemed to be on a stool next to me.

I did at one time hear Raidho X5 speakers with some massive monoblocks at Rockymountain years ago. I was actually surprised at how big and emersive they sounded. But they did not put me there on stage with the band. I guess I am saying I could accept a small speaker being able to provide a layered sound stage.

I don't know that my system is Cardboard. I do know it has a long way to go as getting a layered sound stage is concerned. I hope my dog does not plow into them if they are an additional 2 to 3 feet in the room. I'm getting right up into his romping area. At least replacement drivers are only $120 or so. Would hate to loose some audiophile delight driver that cost $8,000 or more.

 

[Kingrex]

Howard's cabinets are RCA Ubangis. They are also big theater horns similar to Altec 817. Bigger, more like the Altec 211.

His woofers are EV 15w

Found a pix from one of my visits. Been there 4 or 5 times.

 

[DSkip]

What you seem to be describing is a forward sound. Perhaps try moving your listening position towards the speaker instead of adjusting speaker placement. You may have to slightly reposition the speakers to accommodate your new angle.

I prefer a more forward soundstage and find myself often sitting closer to the speakers than the distance between the two speakers.

 

[bonzo75]

Found a pix from one of my visits. Been there 4 or 5 times.
View attachment 66549

Yes he has videos on YouTube

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Found a pix from one of my visits. Been there 4 or 5 times.
View attachment 66549

That is one cool system. Do you know what amps he has?

 

[Kingrex]

I just realized he has a 15 cell horn. And yes, he told me he is using EV woofers. His compression driver might be a Great Plains. Or maybe he wants one of those. If I had a place to house them, I might buy them. He had a local carpenter do the bass cabinets. They are of an impressive quality. Very tight joints and much better than stock plywood materials for the cabinets.

 

[Al M.]

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but it looks like your speakers are sort of close to the front wall?

As I said the drivers are 7 feet from the front wall.

 

[Kingrex]

That is one cool system. Do you know what amps he has?

2 x 1570B modded by Tom Tutay with Transition audio. They drive the Bass.
2 x 1569 modded by some other builder running the multicell.
The crossovers are custom
The preamp and phono preamp is Tom Tutay.
Custom plinth for the Techniques. I think the Russian built one.
Very nice arm. I'm spacing the name. The fat arm one. Very nice cartridge. Transfiguration

 

[Kingrex]

Next time I'm in VA I am going to bring a couple 10 AWG circuits to his rack. Right now he is on the same 12 AWG that feeds around the room. I think he will be surprised at the change that brings. All of that on one 12 AWG circuit. Of course, Corona is limiting my travel. I hope I can get on a plane again one day.

 

[Tim Link]

I think minimizing early reflections has a lot to do with these spacial perceptions. Big horns are good at it, and a big room helps delay and attenuate the reflections all the more, so room treatments may not be needed to get you there. A smaller room with the right treatments can also produce similar effects, but I find just the visual stimulus alone of the larger space puts my audio perceptual system into a different state.

 

[Al M.]

What you seem to be describing is a forward sound. Perhaps try moving your listening position towards the speaker instead of adjusting speaker placement. You may have to slightly reposition the speakers to accommodate your new angle.

I prefer a more forward soundstage and find myself often sitting closer to the speakers than the distance between the two speakers.

A more forward soundstage is what I also prefer, but my system can portray remote performers in a large acoustic as well. Too many systems have a one trick pony soundstage, either everything forward or everything remote.

I sit relatively close to my speakers as well, at a distance of 8.5 feet ear to tweeter.

 

[Al M.]

A smaller room with the right treatments can also produce similar effects, but I find just the visual stimulus alone of the larger space puts my audio perceptual system into a different state.

I often try to overcome that issue in my just medium sized room by listening in the dark .

Seriously, often the soundstage seems bigger when doing so.

 

[bonzo75]

I often try to overcome that issue in my just medium sized room by listening in the dark .

Seriously, often the soundstage seems bigger when doing so.

Your room is big. It's 24 feet right? And wide?