I read "Help me beat my CD Transport" today and I feel like I need to say something

Windows X

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I have been in similar position for over 10 years. I bought a few highend CD playback systems, maybe not the finest like dCS Vivaldi or Esoteric Grandioso but something a bit more affordable like Esoteric P-03/D-03, Emm Labs flagship models (last one with full clock support and mod it) and some others.

I tried to search for highend music server that can sound good like highend CD transport but I couldn't find one, ever. I'm a close friend with Esoteric distributor for over 10 years so I heard all kinds of things about Esoteric with my own ears for years and also about companies using Esoteric drive too.

After reading for a while, I feel like there's a lot of computer audio enthusiasts believing that computer audio can actually sound better CD transport because it's newer, having more advanced technology with variety of combinations to make impossible possible. Well, I'd be like that too before I bought highend CD transports (and turntable) to learn with them.

I believe the most common problem we have in that thread is most serious computer audio experts never once own the best of CD transports before so he never understand the suffering, the anguish of those who have the better references and struggling to fit in with the lesser one.

This is a story from my own experience who owns $30k digital sources in system ($20k for transport/dac and $10k for masterclock+Rubidium). I also modified transport/dac/clock for better sound too so it actually costed more than $30k. Please take it with the grain of salt.

Back in the days when I first took Esoteric CD transport after getting its DAC. I believe it was Esoteric P-05 model to match with D-05 model I bought to use with Weiss/RME interfaces. I laugh at how terrible CD transport was in my room but CD transport actually sounded a lot better when I bring servers to shop demo room.

After repeating the process of system optimization between my own room and using shop demo room as reference for a while, I felt like P-05 is possible to overcome but P-03 is still better. I decided to upgrade to P-03/D-03 combo later and guess what. I found P-03 sounding much worse in my own room. But I wasn't happy about that since I also realized my system was optimized poorly for CD to shine.

I believe it took me about a year or so to make Esoteric P-03 sounding better to the point that I can bring most of its potentials in my room now. After swapping to my own ultimate server which is already better than most servers I can find, it sounded horrible and my friend told me it's too bad for making a comparison. That's when I thought it might be impossible after all.

After that I spent over 3 months researching again from scratch and came up with a new breakthrough that could bring computer audio to enjoyable level to switch between Esoteric P-03 and my own server. However, it's still technically impossible for HDD/SSD to outperform optical media. Even USB slotin LG drive can sound better than best MLC SSD I spent over $600 to buy at that time.

The research takes on and technology improves. I tested on new Linux kernel, OS X updates, and Windows updates consecutively and ultimately I found Windows is still the platform that I can bring the closest performance to highend CD transport with kernel performance capable of fetching resource every 100ns where Linux hits limit at 100,000ns.

I also published my Linux based optimizations as a form of optimized Android ROM in portable devices. At least it's effectively enough to maintain 100% satisfaction rate from hundreds of clients so I believe I made a fine progress on Linux side too as I also spent years calibrating every single parameters for perfect dynamics reproduction.

When I reached $100k system level and I appreciate music as $100k system performance from $30k source quality. Any server I put on including flagship server in market I considered buying made my system performance drop significantly down to the point that I consider old used Esoteric X01D2 or dCS Puccini will sound better in my system. That's how bad computer audio was for me at that time (Now is a lot better).

And if you happen to own the best of CD/SACD transport like Esoteric Grandioso P1 or dCS Vivaldi Transport like him, the gap will be wider when I was familiar with Esoteric P-03 or dCS Scarlatti Transport in my own system. Well, I didn't buy dCS one though because I didn't like it but Vivaldi with new firmware update is nice to my ears now. Also, you need to give it a lot of time for optimizations. Latest speakers I bought took me over 2 years to optimize to reach the optimal performance I'm listening today.

Aside from him, there's actually a few audiophiles who felt disappointed and disillusioned in digital audio but afraid to share his thoughts. These unspoken thoughts can mostly be found from private conversation when he felt safe enough to share his honest thoughts with you.

I'm sharing this story with as a fellow highend audiophile guy who want to find the best stuff that can help me appreciating music with quality on par to truly highend CD transport here. I've been in computer audio for over 10 years and I never feel like I belong to anywhere because people like us often be misunderstood and most of them won't understand our sufferings.

I still enjoy music as I listen to YouTube regularly and I'm happy with smartphone and laptop speakers sound quality too. I believe proper optimizations with good reference will help people realizing how much more your system can grow. Today I'm enjoying my $100k system with optical output from TV also but not as much as good servers though. :)

Regards,
Keetakawee
 
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abeidrov

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So many words:cool:! Which music servers have you compared to your CD transport?
 

abeidrov

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Well, maybe you should try harder and manufacture better products.
 

abeidrov

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Please, don't take offence, but without specific examples this thread is not very usefull. For example, Mike has compared Aqua Transport + DAC combination to SGM - Aqua Formula. His conclusion: they performed at the same level. This is for me a good enough indication, that a quality music server with the right set up can sound as good or better, than a good transport.
 

Al M.

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Well, maybe you should try harder and manufacture better products.

Maybe you should try harder to sound a bit less arrogant. While I believe that there must be servers out there that beat a good CD transport I have yet to hear it. If I would ever go computer audio I probably would go with an expensive Baetis server that has an AES/EBU output. Half-baked solutions don't need to apply. Talk that any computer beats a CD transport is just silly.

There is always this tired argument that of course a server is better since it doesn't have moving parts and doesn't produce jitter. That's simplistic theory talk and ignores for example RF noise. That kind of talk reminds me of "Perfect Sound Forever". We all know how that went. Now, three and a half decades later, CD finally shows some of the potential implied in this original promise, which for the longest time had been marred by implementation problems that digital engineers hadn't quite anticipated.
 
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abeidrov

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Maybe you should read my posts more carefully. I’ve never said that “any computer beats a CD transport”
 

Al M.

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Fair enough.
 

abeidrov

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I do apologize to the OP, if I sounded a bit harsh. And maybe, an Esoteric Garandioso with external clock will beat any known and manufactured today music server. What I think is the more relevant question for most people on this forum: can a 10-15K music server successfully compete with a 10-15K CD transport?
 

Windows X

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As I stated in my first post, I use Esoteric CD transports as my reference. The best I own was Esoteric P-03 model which is much better than P-05 model. I have yet to see any server in the market including my own to perform on par against CD transport using Esoteric drive.

I also have Emm Labs and some others using great Sony/Philips drives as well. But I'm also building a commercial servers now so I can't share what servers I compared with but some are in $10-20k range too.

Aqua Transport is considered a good transport and I believe some servers can perform at the same level of some CD transports in market. But highend CD transport with Esoteric drive has better performance exceeding the limits of servers in market today.

As you can see from 14 pages, there isn't a single audiophile who claimed to have music server sounding better than CD transport with Esoteric drive which is considered very expensive and most of them are above $10k range.

My point of this post is to voice my opinion that the best of music servers in market today couldn't outperform the higher end of CD transports in the market yet. But I'm sure it'll get better over time and maybe we'll reach to the point that it can reach to acceptable level some days.

For today's standards, you can get Esoteric P-05X at around $10k and I doubt you can find any server in market to outperform it in every aspect. If someone can bring server into the room that optimized for good CD transport at that level or beyond, we should get interesting results.
 

audioguy

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Like so many other aspects of this hobby, experiences differ. My example was probably 6 years ago, and we blind tested what was then the top of the line dCS stack against a server. We took the digital output of the server into the other dCS pieces (upsampler and DAC, less the transport and clock), and got the exact opposite results of yours. Every "audiophile check box" was superior on the server. I got rid of my dCS transport (but kept the DAC and upsampler) and so did the person who was also a participant in the test.

Would it be that way today?? Don't know but I would never go back to JUST a transport even if the sound of it was marginally better than the server. WAY too much convince and flexibility with a server.

Like I said, each to his own.
 

Windows X

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As I also said before, I also found server performing better than Esoteric P-05/P-03 and also Emm Labs when I first took them in. After optimizing my system for CD transport to sound as good as it can, server couldn't hold a chance to outperform CD transport in properly optimized system.

I also added in my first post that it took me over a year to optimize my system for Esoteric P-03 to reach its proper potentials (and that made my system sounding a lot better after doing that). If you can't setup proper system to make full uses of decent CD transport, some servers may perform better than Esoteric Grandioso or dCS Vivaldi transport in those systems too.

Audiophiles have their own references and I'm not here to judge anyone. I just want computer audio enthusiasts to understand that some people also have that kind of opinions too.

Regards,
Keetakawee
 

abeidrov

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As I also said before, I also found server performing better than Esoteric P-05/P-03 and also Emm Labs when I first took them in. After optimizing my system for CD transport to sound as good as it can, server couldn't hold a chance to outperform CD transport in properly optimized system.

I also added in my first post that it took me over a year to optimize my system for Esoteric P-03 to reach its proper potentials (and that made my system sounding a lot better after doing that). If you can't setup proper system to make full uses of decent CD transport, some servers may perform better than Esoteric Grandioso or dCS Vivaldi transport in those systems too.

Audiophiles have their own references and I'm not here to judge anyone. I just want computer audio enthusiasts to understand that some people also have that kind of opinions too.

Regards,
Keetakawee
Can you at least say what DACs you were using when comparing Esoteric P-03 to different music servers, what type of connection was used, and what the rest of the system looks like?
Thanks.
 

Windows X

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My apologies. It's Esoteric D-05 and D-03 as a combo for CD/SACD playback. I also bought Emm Labs CDSD SE/DCC2 SE and modified them too. I also have other DACs like Playback Designs, Weiss, Berkley Alpha DAC, etc. I don't own Weiss Jason/Medea, Esoteric P-0s or dCS but I heard them plenty times through years too.

I used AES and coaxial output from servers and associated Firewire / USB interfaces to my DACs. I also bought eXD this year for dual BNC link playing DSD to my Emm Labs last year. You can read about the rest of my system below.

Preamp: Viola Labs Cadenza
Power: Karan KA S 600
Speakers: Rockport Alya

We also tested in ultra highend systems for numerous times but can't find any server sounding good enough to use in properly setup highend systems. That's how I ended up building my own later.
 
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abeidrov

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My apologies. It's Esoteric D-05 and D-03 as a combo for CD/SACD playback. I also bought Emm Labs CDSD SE/DCC2 SE and modified them too. I also have other DACs like Playback Designs, Weiss, Berkley Alpha DAC, etc. I don't own Weiss Jason/Medea, Esoteric P-0s or dCS but I heard them plenty times through years too.

I used AES and coaxial output from servers and associated Firewire / USB interfaces to my DACs. I also bought eXD this year for dual BNC link playing DSD to my Emm Labs last year. You can read about the rest of my system below.

Preamp: Viola Labs Cadenza
Power: Karan KA S 600
Speakers: Rockport Alya

We also tested in ultra highend systems for numerous times but can't find any server sounding good enough to use in properly setup highend systems. That's how I ended up building my own later.
Thanks.
 

Cellindo

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I agree, the best computer audio source can be very good but still not at the pinnacle of the best CD drive like Metronome Kalista, JMF, dCS and a few.
After many many hands-on experimentations at home for my case it turns out that the best implementation is a 4-box solution;

• one audio file server ie. External NAS (much better than any storage inside the music server even SSD powered by a separate 5V battery)
• one streaming server based on a stripped down Linux distribution; I typically use Roon as the streaming software
• one IP data end-point/drive doing the conversion from IP stream into AES / EBU feeding the DAC finally. I use a dCS Network Bridge for that purpose but it could be another product or even a second tiny PC with USB output (I like less USB connectivity for high-end audio)
• Finally, the Roon Control software is running on a tablet or laptop to not interfere with the streaming server.

From different users’ point of view, this is the most advanced and performing computer audio solution nowdays. But still not the absolute best compared to the state of the art CD drive. Why is difficult to figure out .... software issues and overall (high) complexity most probably!
 

audioguy

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At this point in my audio journey, the differences that may exist between the very best transport and your Roon based streaming approach, are far outweighed by the convenience of being able to immediately switch between CD's , or streaming from something like Tidal.

But that's just me!!
 

microstrip

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At this point in my audio journey, the differences that may exist between the very best transport and your Roon based streaming approach, are far outweighed by the convenience of being able to immediately switch between CD's , or streaming from something like Tidal.

But that's just me!!

As far as I see from your great AV room your system is essentially tuned for AV. Looking at your list of electronics I would not expect anyone to notice significant differences between transports and servers.

It seems to me that the perspective of the OP (or mine, BTW) on sound reproduction is quite different. Different audio journeys, as you say.
 

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