Introducing the New HiFi Miser Forum-As discussed by Andre Marc

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Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#1

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
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#2
May as well close it as I doubt he'll be back!
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,571
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Calgary, AB
#4
It did indeed and drove away a person who is only trying to help and assist. This unfortunately won't be the last time either.
 
Apr 3, 2010
15,814
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Seattle, WA
#5
It did indeed and drove away a person who is only trying to help and assist.
If that is all he was doing in that thread we would not be having this conversation....

Makes me dislike a lot of gear discussions we have here. When that is the topic, it seems to become life and death for some people. Common sense to be damned. And so the respect for fellow members it seems.

Let's talk more about music. Far less casualties there and opportunity to really transform each other's musical experience.
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,571
10
38
Calgary, AB
#7
If that is all he was doing in that thread we would not be having this conversation....

Makes me dislike a lot of gear discussions we have here. When that is the topic, it seems to become life and death for some people. Common sense to be damned. And so the respect for fellow members it seems.

Let's talk more about music. Far less casualties there and opportunity to really transform each other's musical experience.
And what more was he doing?
 
Apr 3, 2010
15,814
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Seattle, WA
#8
And what more was he doing?
He called a new member a bunch of names and accused him of working for a competitor of that amp company. We welcome new members. We don't dump on them just because he observes that the heatsink is upside down. He then starts to curse everyone in sight including some of our most senior members. None of that was helpful to anyone including himself.

Sitting here we have not sanctioned him in any manner despite violating a bunch of our Terms of Service. Not even a warning. What I had to do is apologize on his behalf to a number of members who found his conduct offensive and anything but helpful. And here we are, having created a custom forum for him to post in his professional capacity, making us culpable for his conduct.

As I told him in that thread, he is a member of industry posting under his own name, linking to his professional associations and web site. I expect very high standard of conduct from someone in that capacity.

But all of this is unimportant right now. Either he is happier not being here or not. If he is happier not being here then we should celebrate that if we care about him. Shouldn't have taken something like this to leave the forum but if he is happier now, good for him. If he is not happier, then he is being emotionally immature in not continuing to post here when we have taken no action whatsoever against him. In that case, I am not here to be his therapist to explain this to him. He needs to figure that out and come and post. He is welcome to do so as long as the above conduct does not repeat.

Importantly, there is a way to avoid all of this. What we do now is let someone go nuts and past the point of return, quit and then sit here and complain. The options once that has happened are almost non-existent. What should happen instead is that people who are fans of these members, should privately communicate with them and let them know that they are going too far and pull them back from abyss.

I do this all the time, to members of both camp. When I see the trajectory not being good, I send them a PM and ask that they pull back as a favor to me. In every case the response is positive and the conflict is avoided And members remain here. I have even done this to members who have been my mortal enemy on other forums and they too have been completely cooperative. They see the reason I am asking them that because ultimately tangling in a battle to death, leaves both sides bleeding.

So please, if there is a lesson here, is that. Reach out to these members and not let them do anything but what you say John: help and assist. If you don't want to do it, ask me and I will do it. I almost did that for Andre but being involved in the argument made it harder to make that decision.

As an aside, I have lost a lot of members from the forum that are important to me. My chief architect and industry luminary was sanctioned and he quit in anger. It could have damaged my industry reputation in a very serious manner. I did not protest because he does go after members strongly and at the end of the day, was not a good fit for the forum. Likewise we lost Earl Geddes over a member demanding that he show his room measurements. He refused and we took the side of the member and lost Earl. It is a personal loss for me from the point of view of learning from him. But it is what happened. I look ahead and see the huge positive that you all are in my life in helping me advance my understanding of music and music technology so I don't come and demand explanation and change in forum.

So on this US holiday, let's have this be a day of reflection than "oh look at how terrible the forum has gotten." Let's have a positive outcome on life in the forum and let adults make their own decisions as to whether they want to stay here or not.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2010
6,135
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La Jolla, Calif USA
#9
Amir, I cannot speak for Andre, but I would certainly feel that he is unhappy with the way the information about the Redgum build quality was brought to the fore on his thread....and IMHO understandably so!
I cannot understand why a PM notifying him of your ( and others) concern regarding the quality of the construction of this piece was not first initiated. That, prior to any further online "information" regarding the quality of the technical design/construction..or lack thereof.
I also am a little puzzled as to why this particular piece was used as an example, when there are numerous other pieces of gear that come to our attention that are not so 'exposed'.:confused:
( and typically these pieces are usually 'stratospheric' priced)

I'm not saying that a 'exposure' of the poor quality ( if that is in fact the case) of a piece of gear that is being brought to our attention may not be warranted:cool:, only that the way that is accomplished perhaps needs to be a bit more diplomatic, again IMHO.
 
Apr 3, 2010
15,814
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Seattle, WA
#10
Hi Davey. Thanks for the post. The information I shared regarding reliability of capacitors is useful to all members. So I don't understand why I should have sent him that information in private. Just like Andre felt he should share how it sounded, I like to share how it is built. If something did not sound good, do we want that also be shared in private?

As to why this one, it is extremely uncommon to put a heatsink in an amp upside down. It simply is not good practice so that is why it was noticed by the person who noted it first. It literally like seeing a car with its steering pointed backward like I said in the thread.

As to other devices, I have already done that in another article. See: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18807-Inside-of-an-Audio-Video-Receiver-(AVR). I have written another article which also got published that dug into the guts of Oppo Blu-ray player. Both articles were extremely well received by the publisher of Widescreen Review Magazine and its readers. It shocked me to no end the people find this type of information objectionable.

For the life of me, I could not predict that there would be resentment to learning what is inside our gear and what follows good design and manufacturing practices and what doesn't. We have choices of thousands of products. We ought to be interested in that sort of thing as opposed to having severe allergy and emotional blow out as Andre showed.

We need to celebrate the collective knowledge of the membership as opposed to cheering subjective reviews of product but show intolerance regarding how they are designed and built. If we are discussing a medical topic, I expect the doctors among us to put me in my place if I said something that is clearly wrong to a bunch of them. Not them being afraid of doing so as to not hurt my feelings.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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#11
Hi

I believe that we need to have thicker skin. If one has a position then defend it but avod name calling and expletive. I welcome Andre contributions. I and some non-lunatic fringe audiophiles have bought a few things based on his recommendations. It does happen that there are heated dissensions so be it that what makes a forum alive. But there must be rules of engagement and to me two of the most important are to avoid name insults and ad hominem attacks. Attack the post not the person.
One more point it is human to be wrong at times both in position or in behavior. What is wrong is to persist .. Just understand it is not an issue of life and death but a hobby. We often lose sight of that and an attack on our position is seen as an attack on our persons. Let's drop that.


To be OT. Just had a friend purchase the Elac B6 ... To say that it punches waaaaay above is an understatement ... Coupled with a serious amp this little gem is IMHO a serious entry in the world of Higher Fidelity. Recommended. I will give some as a gift to friend looking for a under $500 amp maybe some Yaquin . Anyone has heard of these or heard these?

Andre just come back !
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
2,975
834
180
#12
I think a big part of the issue with the criticisms of the amp were they are not necessarily valid and assumptions were made about the heat transfer and likely internal temperatures that simply conjecture, this is incredibly unfair to the designer and to Andre, who is presenting the product. It seemed like some were suggesting the designer of this amp had no clue heat would be produced and/or had no idea how to deal with it. That's a pretty ridiculous assumption. That's not to say there were no valid criticisms but there was a whole lot more "armchair engineering" that was speculative bull$hit. I don't think criticism should be disallowed, but this was unfair to both redgum and Andre.

And then there's the diatribe on parts quality, which is a matter of opinion as long as the reliability of the amp is good, which it seems to be. There's a place in audio for folks who want basic, non-overbuilt components and that's fine as long as the product isn't presented as something different.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,464
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#13
DaveC

So be it... Fend them off and be on your way... I sincerely believe BTW that it is not the way to put a heat sink and voiced it... What is wrong about that? I could be wrong and stand to be corrected. It is a criticism nothing else.
What do we truly want that all product presented be met with "congrats"!! "Well done" , etc!? Is it what a forum should be? A free marketing outlet? Or rather a place of respectful discussions? And of course disagreements?.
I have learned more from dissenting opinions that congratulatory ones.. Ins't it the same for every one ?
I sincerely think it is time to move on...
 
May 30, 2010
16,222
1,200
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Portugal
#14
I think a big part of the issue with the criticisms of the amp were they are not necessarily valid and assumptions were made about the heat transfer and likely internal temperatures that simply conjecture, this is incredibly unfair to the designer and to Andre, who is presenting the product. It seemed like some were suggesting the designer of this amp had no clue heat would be produced and/or had no idea how to deal with it. That's a pretty ridiculous assumption. That's not to say there were no valid criticisms but there was a whole lot more "armchair engineering" that was speculative bull$hit. I don't think criticism should be disallowed, but this was unfair to both redgum and Andre.

And then there's the diatribe on parts quality, which is a matter of opinion as long as the reliability of the amp is good, which it seems to be. There's a place in audio for folks who want basic, non-overbuilt components and that's fine as long as the product isn't presented as something different.
DaceC,

Your points are spot on. The information shared was too general and incomplete to be of any use for most of the members. Even worst it was referred that proximity of a regulator and a capacitor suggested poor design, also even without knowing or sharing the factual details. The method of analysis based in photos, without any real data and access to the equipment is very limited and can be misleading.

IMHO, some people overreacted when they saw heat sinks being used as decorative elements.
 
Apr 3, 2010
15,814
3
0
Seattle, WA
#15
I think a big part of the issue with the criticisms of the amp were they are not necessarily valid and assumptions were made about the heat transfer and likely internal temperatures that simply conjecture, this is incredibly unfair to the designer and to Andre, who is presenting the product. It seemed like some were suggesting the designer of this amp had no clue heat would be produced and/or had no idea how to deal with it. That's a pretty ridiculous assumption. That's not to say there were no valid criticisms but there was a whole lot more "armchair engineering" that was speculative bull$hit. I don't think criticism should be disallowed, but this was unfair to both redgum and Andre.
I am unfamiliar with the term "armchair engineer." I went searching online and the first hit was to "urban dictionary" and it says this:

"TOP DEFINITION
armchair engineers
These are typically 24 year old yuppie wannabees straight out of college. It takes about 18 months to get them to the point where they can actually do something constructive for the company. Once this happens, they get a stupid title with the word "worldwide director" or something, and from this point on will not put their hands on anything tangible, like a product."

I can tell you that I can't even think that far back let alone be 24 years old! :D

The next few links were other things but then the was a link to our forum!!! And this was it, a post by Bruce saying CA's founder is calling him an armchair engineer: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7330-Armchair-Engineering!

Irony of ironies, the first response is from Andre!!!

When you work for a proper company, i.e. anything other than a garage shop, your work as an engineer will always get reviewed. In some companies for example, every line of code you write has to be audited by a senior engineer. As a minimum architecture of the system will be reviewed and heavily second guessed by senior engineer with gray hairs. As an engineering manager for nearly 30 years, it was my job to a) conduct such architectural review and b) fund an effect test/QA team to test what engineers designed. For anything involving manufacturing, we would have DFM for Design for Manufacturing engineer (s) who absolutely review and second guess your design. I learned long time ago to not "protect" my team and let these audits, reviews and test find problems. Because the alternative was that the customer, press or competitors would find them. Had such measures been in place properly at VW, maybe they would not be in such hot water with their Diesel engines.

Anyway, what I and others did in looking at that amplifier, is routine and proper. As I said, I have done that and had the results published in a magazine that is read by the industry. Look at any engineering unboxing and they will comment on such things. A lot can be learned by looking at the internal design of a electronic equipment, much like a mechanic can by looking under a used car you are looking at buying. These types of reviews and audits should be what customers cherish. Not look for ways to censor.

As I said in my last post, I am still shocked that there has been any controversy here.

You say we are being unfair to Andre. Why? He did not vouch for the reliability or design of the unit. Why would he take issue with our criticism of that? He said it sounded good to him. Us saying the heatsink is upside down did not dispute his report.

As to manufacturer, Andre emailed him and he responded and I said that was a great thing. We also acknowledged that the heatsink was over designed so this was a minor concern.

Let me say that on a personal level, one of the things that I absolutely love about high-end audio is that it includes extreme engineering. What may work with one transistor may have 6 :). What may work with one DAC, has 8 of them holding hands :) :). As an engineer I love and lust after what goes on into high-end equipment. It seems odd to me and worth noting when something is sold as high-end audio, i.e. above mass market products, but what is inside of it is lackluster and nothing resembling high-end. Such was the case here.
 
Jan 29, 2014
983
2
18
Cape Town South Africa
#16
I think the behaviour of those eager to rubbish the product just based on internal pics and not on hearing or owning one was reprehensible

And then the hypocritical attack re his title even more so
 
#17
Amir, you closed that Redgum thread for a reason. This thread is in danger of turning into Redgum Mk. II. I think it would be wise if all the off-topic posts in this thread, including your own, are removed. Andre might be tempted to come back in here and respond, and then you'll have a real situation. This forum should have a policy of not talking about members. We are here to discuss ideas, equipment, techniques, etc ... and not gossip or criticize each other personally.
 

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
1,161
3
38
#19
I think the behaviour of those eager to rubbish the product just based on internal pics and not on hearing or owning one was reprehensible

And then the hypocritical attack re his title even more so
Hi Rodney,

Like you, I'm just a member here who hopes that for the most part we can relate to one another with a degree of civility under the terms and conditions of the forum. (3. Please do not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, racist, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violates any law. We reserve the right to delete any message that in our sole opinion falls in these categories and serve up administrative action to any member because of them.)

What from your perspective was hypocritical of me making Andre aware his language may be considered by some to be offensive?

Cheers,

853guy
 
Jan 29, 2014
983
2
18
Cape Town South Africa
#20
It was your post where you went on about the sexual degradation and all that other waffle re his use of the word bitch.
Worst pretentious hypocritical drivel I have ever read

To refresh you
Maybe the fact that you used a sexually-charged and misogynistic epithet in the title of your thread - which as well as being potentially offensive to women toward whom the word in question is most frequently directed, could also be seen as being offensive to anyone who has been subjected to sexual violence and/or enforced servitude against their free will - lead to the tone of the thread descending fairly quickly toward you needing to then follow up with a profanity-laced defensive tirade in an attempt at self-justification.

I mean, I get it... it’s a pop-culture reference, a word reappropriated by modern feminism and hip-hop... I get it. Far be it from me to tell you what to do or say, Andre, but as much as I will fiercly defend your right to freedom of speech here on this forum, unless you’re attempting reclaim the word on behalf of feminists, lesbians or victims of prison rape, perhaps the professional writer in you could be more self-selective of the words you choose to express yourself, especially given the heavily male-centric and male-dominated industry the high-end has historically been - and in the context of this forum, continues to be.
 
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