Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[MarinJim]

PLEASE, take this as a personal journey, and not as an attack. I sold some very expensive gear ($32K Burmester 911 MK3 and $18K GNSC Wadia S7i). I look at some of the SOTA prices and cringe. Not because I can't afford it (I can), but because I seriously wonder about the bang for the buck factor. I kept my $24K Concert Fidelity pre and $27K Venture speakers, but sold my amp amp and source, and went downtown and bout an Oppo 105 and an ATI amp. But, you know what? I felt a 10% decline for a 1000% savings. Do not get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the SOTA, but wallet is my new sphincter muscle. Why even start this thread? Because I see an alarming tread at CES and the new prices of gear, considering this economy. If I am wrong, sorry for your time.

Edit: This is in reference to "Ultra High End" article. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[DaveyF]

IMO, we really need to get away from the thinking that price has to do with ability. One thing that I have always done is to listen for myself as to how any piece of gear sounds. To assume that the highest price gear has to sound better is a fallacy, again IMO.
BTW, affording the best has nothing to do with making a purchase decision, IME those that can afford the best are NOT indiscriminate.

 

[joeinid]

Jim,

I know exactly how you feel. Just for fun last month I purchased a Bob Carver Black Magic 20 wpc amp. It has a built in volume control, mainly for preamp matching but works well as a volume control. I was going to match it up to my Cornwall III's but have been too lazy to bring them upstairs. I thought I'd try it on my TADs thinking there's no way this is going to work. After the first few hours the amp was starting to open up and relax. Just amazing. For the past 2 1/2 weeks, I been using nothing but my Carver amp which cost under $2K with my dac direct into it. I am so happy with it, I just can't believe it. Of course I can't crank it to insane levels but at normal listening levels, I love what I hear. Value is sky high.

 

[WLVCA]

The prices for super high end gear continues to escalate.

I'm not in the market for $250,000 speakers or a $100,000 amp.

However, there is also a ton of more reasonably price gear that provides very good sound quality and there are an increaing number of products in that category.

A lot of those products are available internet direct and that business models helps keep prices down, too.

If someone wants to spend 6 figures on their system its OK with me.

Half the fun for me is researching, learning about and finding products that perform well above their price point.

I am definitely a value buyer.

 

[puroagave]

until the hyperbole ceases to exist and we can all be more intellectually honest about the difference in SQ between obscenely expensive, very expensive and moderately expensive gear nothing will change. I still have a hard time thinking $5000 is excellent value for a phono cartridge - compared to what?? that said, i still like to read about $35,000 tonearms and $200k loudspeakers even if i cant see the value in it or never will.

 

[Bruce B]

Absolutely true... just because it's bigger and more expensive, does not make it better. I've fallen into that trap and know several others that have as well.
Just because you can, don't mean you should. Things have gotten out of hand with this elitist attitude.

 

[microstrip]

PLEASE, take this as a personal journey, and not as an attack. I sold some very expensive gear ($32K Burmester 911 MK3 and $18K GNSC Wadia S7i). I look at some of the SOTA prices and cringe. Not because I can't afford it (I can), but because I seriously wonder about the bang for the buck factor. I kept my $24K Concert Fidelity pre and $27K Venture speakers, but sold my amp amp and source, and went downtown and bout an Oppo 105 and an ATI amp. But, you know what? I felt a 10% decline for a 1000% savings. Do not get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the SOTA, but wallet is my new sphincter muscle. Why even start this thread? Because I see an alarming tread at CES and the new prices of gear, considering this economy. If I am wrong, sorry for your time.

Edit: This is in reference to "Ultra High End" article. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please do not take personal also, but my feeling is that if when you changed those two pieces of equipment you only got a a 10% decrease in performance this is a very clear indication of an improperly matched and non optimized existing system.

People must understand that high price does not mean forcibly great sound - it usually means the possibility of achieving a great sound in a properly assembled system. BTW, I have no direct experience with any of the gear you are referring.

 

[Bill Hart]

I think the folks on this forum are hardly the worst offenders. Sure, we have our share of 'what's the point of audiophile wire' skeptics, but for the most part, even those that accept the notion that that there can be incremental improvements in the high end are not necessarily gullible or willing to shed dollars for bling gear. I'm willing to spend on stuff that brings me more verisimilitude, but I'm not an equipment of the month guy and the incremental improvement at a certain price point may not be worth it. There's also an aspect of knowing what the 'best' is but not necessarily needing it for daily consumption: think haute cuisine- I rarely eat in 3 star Michelin restaurants, though I've spent my way across many of them. I'm pretty happy with something tasty or interesting without all the trappings. Same thing with cars. Been there, done it. I really want a Morgan 3 wheeler.
PS: what Ultra high-end article?

 

[FrantzM]

until the hyperbole ceases to exist and we can all be more intellectually honest about the difference in SQ between obscenely expensive, very expensive and moderately expensive gear nothing will change. I still have a hard time thinking $5000 is excellent value for a phono cartridge - compared to what?? that said, i still like to read about $35,000 tonearms and $200k loudspeakers even if i cant see the value in it or never will.

Mostly agree with you.

The hyperbole will not stop: It is the basis of the industry. As long as some can claim incredible increase in SQ with no objective way to back it up it will stay. You can now understand why the industry has moved smoothly from a (admittedly fuzzy) standard: The sound of Real music to a fuzzier but more remunerative: Preferences aka whatever your wallet can bear... Of course the more expensive the more "preferred"or should it be "preferable" .
For the record many would be very surprised by how small differences between electronics are under more or less rigorous conditions, level matching being one of these. Not a popular notion of course else how can you substantiate $4000 power cords and $50K speaker cables ... true nonetheless...

 

[DonH50]

Is there really a gap from say $1k to $100k+ speakers, or is it just that the really expensive stuff is getting most of the attention, press articles, reviews, etc.? That said, a few years ago when I re-entered this hobby I quickly discovered prices had increased about 10x in the decade or so I was out of it. Sadly, my income has not risen by a factor of ten in that period...

 

[FrantzM]

Please do not take personal also, but my feeling is that if when you changed those two pieces of equipment you only got a a 10% decrease in performance this is a very clear indication of an improperly matched and non optimized existing system.

People must understand that high price does not mean forcibly great sound - it usually means the possibility of achieving a great sound in a properly assembled system. BTW, I have no direct experience with any of the gear you are referring.

microstrip how would you know that from your vantage point ? Have you heard his system?

If the high price means how you put it the "possibility of achieving great sound" then the companion equipment must be similarly priced .. thus an even more expensive system .. It gets to be expensive to assemble a better again according to this peculiar logic.
I have yet to see someone match a $250K speaker with a $5000 amplifier ...

 

[MarinJim]

Mostly agree with you.

The hyperbole will not stop: It is the basis of the industry. As long as some can claim incredible increase in SQ with no objective way to back it up it will stay. You can now understand why the industry has moved smoothly from a (admittedly fuzzy) standard: The sound of Real music to a fuzzier but more remunerative: Preferences aka whatever your wallet can bear... Of course the more expensive the more "preferred"or should it be "preferable" .
For the record many would be very surprised by how small differences between electronics are under more or less rigorous conditions, level matching being one of these. Not a popular notion of course else how can you substantiate $4000 power cords and $50K speaker cables ... true nonetheless...

Very good point, and one I have to address. My main thinking is what is value? How do we audiophiles in this day and age look for advice? Is it our neighbors, our magazine reviewers, or local dealers who get paid to sell their products? I appreciate a free market system, but the consumer is king.

 

[MarinJim]

Jim,

I know exactly how you feel. Just for fun last month I purchased a Bob Carver Black Magic 20 wpc amp. It has a built in volume control, mainly for preamp matching but works well as a volume control. I was going to match it up to my Cornwall III's but have been too lazy to bring them upstairs. I thought I'd try it on my TADs thinking there's no way this is going to work. After the first few hours the amp was starting to open up and relax. Just amazing. For the past 2 1/2 weeks, I been using nothing but my Carver amp which cost under $2K with my dac direct into it. I am so happy with it, I just can't believe it. Of course I can't crank it to insane levels but at normal listening levels, I love what I hear. Value is sky high.

Thanks Joe,

Of any one I respect you are the the most I do. Why? Because you respect the game, not the market. And you know what I mean.

 

[joeinid]

Thanks Joe,

Of any one I respect you are the the most I do. Why? Because you respect the game, not the market. And you know what I mean.

 

[microstrip]

(...) For the record many would be very surprised by how small differences between electronics are under more or less rigorous conditions, level matching being one of these. Not a popular notion of course else how can you substantiate $4000 power cords and $50K speaker cables ... true nonetheless...

My view:

For the record many would be very surprised by how big the differences between electronics are under more or less rigorous conditions, level matching being one of these. Not a popular notion of course as it can help you to substantiate $4000 power cords and $50K speaker cables ... true nonetheless...

 

[KBK]

I've mentioned this before:

IF I work hard at doing my best and then give it away...you know what?

Nobody shows up.

The ones who DO show up tend to be the type who whine and want an even better price, even though you are already killing yourself in that given product at the given price.

Pardon me, I'm a bit bitter about the idea of there being a reward for those who do their best.

For I've never seen it, after many a try.

It's that line, 'no good deed goes unpunished'.

So instead, It is just normal pricing for the products in their respective quality class.

For example, twice now, I've heard back from differing retailers (depending on the business I'm involved in that is being spoken of) that some established companies have delivered direct threats to their retailers, if those retailers should try and sell or stock the given product that I'm involved in. The bargain vs quality is perceived to be enough of a threat (market disruptor) to the given market model and established companies ...that they threaten their own retailers.

The retailers, many time, also agree. They want to sell expensive established items, within that given market category... that have good solid return....due to high margins and due to market perception. They do not want to rock the boat of their own customers and go from a "pull market" (customer comes into buy and spend) to a "push market" (customer has to be convinced to buy). It is tough enough to make a living in this environment.

Thus, human perception and human mental position, and motion through life... is screwing over the very core of what you are proposing with this thread. Lord knows I've tried and all I ever managed to get out of it is starvation, market rejection, and marginalization.

You are talking about fighting the city hall that is built in the core of the vast majority of people, as they exist and integrate in this market and world of audio. It matters not that it will run off a cliff, it will regardless of what anyone says or does. Like a heart on a decapitated body, the last beats will be the same as the prior beats....excepting that those last ones will be the most desperate and strongest.

The only way it is ever going happen, is that you are going to have to hold the market down, as it exists today ---and punch a knife through it's heart. Good luck with that.

Human nature.

 

[microstrip]

microstrip how would you know that from your vantage point ? Have you heard his system?

If the high price means how you put it the "possibility of achieving great sound" then the companion equipment must be similarly priced .. thus an even more expensive system .. It gets to be expensive to assemble a better again according to this peculiar logic.
I have yet to see someone match a $250K speaker with a $5000 amplifier ...

Frantz,

I clearly stated "BTW, I have no direct experience with any of the gear you are referring."

However my experience with expensive speakers has been that removing the correct amplifier and source from a properly optimized system will degrade it much more than 10%. However when the system is mediocre you can change anything that the perceived changes are not relevant.

Happily people usually make reasonable matches - humans learn from their mistakes. Even in high-end ...

 

[A.wayne]

I've mentioned this before:

IF I work hard at doing my best and then give it away...you know what?

Nobody shows up.

The ones who DO show up tend to be the type who whine and want an even better price, even though you are already killing yourself in that given product at the given price.

Pardon me, I'm a bit bitter about the idea of there being a reward for those who do their best.

For I've never seen it, after many a try.

It's that line, 'no good deed goes unpunished'.

So instead, It is just normal pricing for the products in their respective quality class.

For example, twice now, I've heard back from differing retailers (depending on the business I'm involved in that is being spoken of) that some established companies have delivered direct threats to their retailers, if those retailers should try and sell or stock the given product that I'm involved in. The bargain vs quality is perceived to be enough of a threat (market disruptor) to the given market model and established companies ...that they threaten their own retailers.

The retailers, many time, also agree. They want to sell expensive established items, within that given market category... that have good solid return....due to high margins and due to market perception. They do not want to rock the boat of their own customers and go from a "pull market" (customer comes into buy and spend) to a "push market" (customer has to be convinced to buy). It is tough enough to make a living in this environment.

Thus, human perception and human mental position, and motion through life... is screwing over the very core of what you are proposing with this thread. Lord knows I've tried and all I ever managed to get out of it is starvation, market rejection, and marginalization.

You are talking about fighting the city hall that is built in the core of the vast majority of people, as they exist and integrate in this market and world of audio. It matters not that it will run off a cliff, it will regardless of what anyone says or does. Like a heart on a decapitated body, the last beats will be the same as the prior beats....excepting that those last ones will be the most desperate and strongest.

The only way it is ever going happen, is that you are going to have to hold the market down, as it exists today ---and punch a knife through it's heart. Good luck with that.

Human nature.

Well my friend , welcome to the high -end , its actually worst than you described and sadly the participants (buyers) are their own worst enemy..

Brap...

 

[cjfrbw]

I'm still waiting for a hi end audio manufacturer to simply state that the ONLY purpose of the product is to show that you have more money than anybody else, and you can afford it but they can't, like gold plated bathroom fixtures and diamond encrusted watches. That's unlikely, so of course, you have to have the choruses of pundits convulsing in orgasmic ecstasies over the next high priced doo dadd.

On the other hand, some things are just going to cost money if you want what they provide. Some blingsters, of course, claim as well to have perfect auditory taste, but that is expected, and it muddies the waters for those with a genuine interest in exploring sound.

I noticed when I bought fancy cars that everybody was initially impressed, but after about a month, I was just the same old turkey in a fancy car.

 

[KBK]

Yep, ask Steve about his OB/GYN practice, when he was still at it. What happened there. A very telling story, it is.