Is this voodoo or science?

Big Dog RJ

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Well here goes another one maties, from the land down unda, although not made in Aus but made in the land of the rising sun, Japan!

A very good mate of mine, who also happens to have CLX's with a fine analog rig consisting of Allnic phonostage, separate power supplies and the fine Linn LP12, fitted with the Candenza Black and SME arm, highly recommended this particular TT mat from a company called 'Spec'.

Made in Japan, with research and engineering based in Japan, I was a bit weary not because of the make at all but rather the price! At nearly 500 smackers, what on earth can a Mat do...?

Just picked it up this arvo, dropped it in, replaced the high grade carbon fibre mat that was used previously, costs only ,$80... plonked this one in, and oh my! Is this voodoo or science? I don't really know but something's going on here big time!

I'll try to summarize much as possible, since I've just finished listening to some very fine LPs and now it's nearly 6am!

1. The surface noise, soundstage depth, tonality, remains the same. So LPs that are in pristine condition will sound extremely quiet and the noisey ones will always have noise.

2. The most significant differences are the dynamics, and pick up energy. Such that, the grooves seemed to be read at far greater clarity and definition.

3. The brilliance comes through more vividly, as if a new cartridge is being used. So the clarity improves by quite a margin, not as high as my personal benchmark in performance, which is around 40 - 45%... this particular mat improves the pick up and overall performance by about 20 - 25% or perhaps even 30% on very high quality recordings.

Therefore, is the price tag justifiable? Probably not but what it does on a particular TT may obviously differ from every TT brand or analog rig out there... I would suggest a trial before taking the plunge, although I sort of had an idea of the outcome, based on the feedback from my good mate, I certainly wasn't expecting this kind of improvement!

The Spec Mat is unlike no other, it's not soft, stiff or brittle, rather it's a form of high grade composite material including an aluminum coating, which basically makes it almost like a platter! It's hard, and very rigid, and basically "plonks" down on the main platter. It's a solid piece of machinery or may I add, a finely crafted and tuned instrument that adds the interface between the platter and the LP.

I simply cannot proclaim that this is the best mat on earth but all I can say is that this is definitely the best sounding mat interface I've ever come across and used to date! On my particular system that is.

I've attached a few pics, and will try to do more research on this particular company. As for now, I'm heading off to doze so that I could have another very very late night session once again today, before heading back to the grinder on Monday.

Cheers to Spec and their high end tech, whatever they're using, voodoo or science or snake oil, oh boy have they got this one correct! Very very highly recommended!

Cheers, RJ
 

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ack

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Just picked it up this arvo, dropped it in, replaced the high grade carbon fibre mat that was used previously, costs only ,$80... plonked this one in, and oh my! Is this voodoo or science? I don't really know but something's going on here big time!

This is indeed one fascinating product that is not marketed actively, therefore does not get much attention. It is so good that it formed the basis of my custom platter-to-LP interface I built and had a whole thread on it https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/turntable-platter-lp-impedance-match.26142/

It is a coated aluminum disc from what I could tell; just don't call it a "mat" - see https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/turntable-platter-lp-impedance-match.26142/page-3#post-527386

You hit gold and you are only just now realizing it. Congrats!
 
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Big Dog RJ

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Yes indeed mate!
I was wondering why they make this disc/mat a bit larger than the standard... I guess they have their reasons. It would be a fantastic learning curve to chat with the designer of this awesome product but I guess I would need to learn Japanese first!

From the moment I placed it onto the platter, I noticed straight away- no soft landing, no fuzzy cushy feeling, no ripples or that sort, just a hard plonk! So I guess this thing is supposed to sit on the platter flat hard! I can see how it would alter resonances, that makes perfect sense but I also think it allows that ultimate interface between the platter and the LP, which is like having no mat at all!

I'm still trying to get my head round this thing and its technology... hardly any material about it but one thing for sure is I'm going to follow this company closely, just to see what else they offer because they're onto something when it comes to extracting the most from LPs. I feel this company is not recognized much compared to the other mainstream gear out there... or perhaps I've just been aloof.

I'm truly overwhelmed by this product and it doesn't even look fancy. When the wifey saw this disc, she commented "Oh goodie just what I was looking for, a large tray to keep cake on!"...? then went onto ask how much was it dal... did you pick it up at the Salvos...? Why bother

Cheers to all, and stay safe
Big woofty woof!
RJ
 

PeterA

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This sounds interesting. You discuss the "interface" between vinyl LP and mat, what about the interface between the bottom of the mat and the top of the platter? My understanding is that the platter is more than just a spinning mass. It is often formulated to deal with the complex resonances originating within the turntable and from the bearing and it is also sometimes designed as a kind of sink draining energy away from the vinyl surface.

Does this new mat act as a barrier between the vinyl and platter, or more as a conduit? Perhaps there is little way to know and every context will be different, as is usually the case with such things. Just curious. Congratulations.
 

spiritofmusic

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RJ, what do you think about the Spec GMP-8000 tt itself?
I have to say, from a purely old school aesthetic/fetish for Japanese uber engineering married to artisan craftsmanship/attraction to outlier brands and rarity cachet, this tt presses every button for me.
Right now if I had £20-30k to spend on a new tt/arm, I'd drop it on this and an SAEC 506 12".
 

Big Dog RJ

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This sounds interesting. You discuss the "interface" between vinyl LP and mat, what about the interface between the bottom of the mat and the top of the platter? My understanding is that the platter is more than just a spinning mass. It is often formulated to deal with the complex resonances originating within the turntable and from the bearing and it is also sometimes designed as a kind of sink draining energy away from the vinyl surface.

Does this new mat act as a barrier between the vinyl and platter, or more as a conduit? Perhaps there is little way to know and every context will be different, as is usually the case with such things. Just curious. Congratulations.

G'day Peter,

Yes, understood your questions and observations, makes perfect sense. The bottom of this disc/mat is exactly the same as the top, or at least I think it is. I can't tell the difference between the two surfaces... looks identical! I was looking for something in the form of an owner's manual of some sort of a description saying which side is which... but nothing, no instructions. So I just plonked it down and went for a spin!

Listening to some average recordings, thought I'd throw in a few Blue Notes from Norah Jones, Feels Like Home album, holy shmackeroons! I never would have thought this label and recording would ever reach this level, what a beautiful sound! Woohoo! Outstanding! Her voice and the blend of the accompanying musicians, the sense of balance and realism is superb!

I really don't need to turn it up that much either, simply because the pick-up energy is fantastic!
Hats Off to Spec and the Japanese crew! Must be that fine sushi that keeps their thinking on top...

I'm sure Ack would have far more knowledge on this, I'm still trying to figure out what it does. It's truly mind boggling in every sense of the word "voodoo " plus science no doubt!

Cheers, RJ
 
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Big Dog RJ

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RJ, what do you think about the Spec GMP-8000 tt itself?
I have to say, from a purely old school aesthetic/fetish for Japanese uber engineering married to artisan craftsmanship/attraction to outlier brands and rarity cachet, this tt presses every button for me.
Right now if I had £20-30k to spend on a new tt/arm, I'd drop it on this and an SAEC 506 12".

That's a definite there Spirit!
There TT must be extraordinary, just as this remarkable disc/mat. I've not heard their TT range at all, let alone even heard of this company, until my good K told me all about it.

I'm thinking that if their TT's cost around 20-30 grand in pounds, that's some serious gear!
I've heard the lofty offerings and although I was impressed with a few, whenever I get back down to earth and listen to the humble RP8, especially with this new gizmo, I'm very impressed overall in performance and VFM, it's right up there. Otoh, I was thinking if only those lofty ones ever used this disc, now that would have been just fabulous!

I'm really not sure if spending 30 grand pounds on a TT is worth the price but I'm sure they have their reasons why... I do know though for much less you can achieve equal or further enhanced performance by carefully selecting the entire analog rig to suit your preference. Afterall it's your inner satisfaction that will benefit, not someone who's reviewing for a high end mag...

There are plenty of products out there that are yet to be discovered and they can deliver superb performance. It's just a matter of finding the right resources. Good stuff Spirit, I'm really overjoyed with this thing and this company in general, must visit them sometime. That would be a great opportunity to learn.
Cheers RJ
 
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spiritofmusic

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RJ, I think it's closer to £15k. I was throwing in £5-15k for a used or new SAEC arm, although I believe it's often used with an EMT 12".
...however, none in the UK, just one in Germany, a handful in the US...it's v much a home market re Japanese ownership.

I might look at this mat. My tt is set up so that the lp doesnt sit on the platter, but 9x 0.5cm high Delrin pods glued to the platter.

If this mat is not too thick, it could sit on these pods and the lp on the mat.
Resonance control is a massive part of getting a successful sound off lp. This mat sounds hugely interesting.
 
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spiritofmusic

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RJ, well I think I'm gonna treat myself. If I don't deserve one of these, then who else? Lol.
It's actually an advantage it's stiff not floppy...more a sheet than a mat.
It'll sit on my Resopods and my lps will finally make full contact (warps permitting) w effectively a platter-type surface.
Your mini review is to blame...thanks for interrupting my Covid isolation mindfulness idyll to get me to spend again Lol.
 
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Stacore

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Hi RJ,

Very interesting question. Let me quote original findings of a fellow engineer Korf Audio:

http://korfaudio.com/blog44

He measured bearing noise in a simple TT and found in his setup that a vast majority of it comes from...the LP playback! Even with a simple and unpretentious bearing (and idler drive), the bearing noise was v small compared
to the traces of the musical program being played. It gets there, heavily filtered, from the vinyl THROUGH THE MAT to the platter and to the spindle. Now some of it may get further to the chassis, some bounces back to the platter/mat/LP. Hence, LP mat is actually quite and important part of the TT design!

Cheers,
Jarek

PS Re: the high cost of the metal mats. Precise machining of a 30cm dia disk only 3 mm thick, keeping it perfectly flat on both sides is not an easy task and requires a big (=expensive) lathe + experience.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Ok I'm beginning to understand this thing now, as I was not aware such an issue existed, let alone resonances. Well I knew about resonances in the form of air-borne vibrations but to think so far ahead in regards to perfecting a TT's performance is quite fascinating. There's no doubt about TT / analog accessories that fit well into any given system to further enhance its performance. Such items as cartridges, arms, levelling, isolation platforms, springs, bearing footers and the list goes on, plus the expense is limitless... but to come across a product like this, scratch my head into thinking why they made it so big (diameter being larger than standard mats plus LPs) was for certain reasons.

There are a few chaps here in Aus that do want to try this thing out but their particular TT platters don't allow this larger disc to set flat onto their existing platters. So one chap went to the extent of contacting the Spec team and inquired. Their response was that they can make a disc/mat to suit smaller sizes but it would be very expensive, in fact more costly than this one! Go figure.

I'm also thinking about the fact where we spend quite large sums to acquire the best cartridges, arms etc., if only we first tried this thing out, then perhaps we could learn more about the TT's we're using, plus save an awful lot of $$$ on those expensive carts! Obviously the cart is necessary but one that costs close to the total of a system itself...is that really necessary?

I also noticed the intriguing build quality and finish of their products, just beautiful! A true work of art!
I'm impressed! I wonder how their gear sounds like. Once again, reminds me of Kondo Audio Note, a highly specialized brand in SOTA SET amplification, which I absolutely love but will not spend that kind of money on. The Spec brand seems to be the SS version of K-Audio Note.

Re. Spirit: I came across their TT, what a beauty! If that's the one you're after, I would think it should be a mighty fine TT!
I do know for a fact that when the Japs make something, they engage in the total surroundings, not just the components... they take into consideration their culture, their reasons, their presence and the universe, and then create something truly special. Whether we like it or not is up to us but most of the time it does engage the senses in total awe... I used to work for a Japanese company reporting to a Japanese boss, they were very connected to their heart and their surroundings, and so the business and product offerings flourished. Still to this day it remains as one of the top tier companies in its industry.

I may get a chance to experience their amplifiers since our local importer carries the brand. I need to check whether he's got any on hand for a demo.
Then I'll get an idea of what exactly these masters in their craft are up to.

Till then, cheers and keep those fine tunes spinning! RJ
 
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spiritofmusic

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RJ, my issue is sourcing this thing...I can only find it on Amazon.Jp, and I've had issues sourcing Japanese merchandise before.

I'm also a tad wary using a 335g item on my tt that uses mag lev on platter.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Mmm... Ok understood Spirit. Only available on Amazon in Jp, that's a far reach...
Isn't there anyone in your parts of the woods who actually imports Spec gear and accessories?
I was told that this company is very selective in what they produce and only offer in limited quantities, so I guess we're pretty lucky in Aus to have an importer who has access.

This reminds me of Kondo Audio Note, when I was so keen to place an order on their Overture amplifier. Two main issues, 1. The importer is based upstate and can't do any service if and when required. 2. The amplifier had to be sent all the way to Japan for service, and the owner has to pay both ways full price for shipping and handling... I did some rough calculations and it was not worth the hassle nor the expenditure. So I ventured back to CJ, plenty of tech support here in Melb plus great service! I've known them since 2004, so it's like coming home!

However, I must say that Overture amplifier is a rare beauty and very fine indeed! Apart from CJ, of course... perhaps one day, who knows.

If there's a will, there's a way Spirit! I'm sure you'll find it somehow.
Best, RJ
 

BruceD

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Hi BDRJ, I would say you dodged a bullet re the Overture Integrated--I was at the CES launch of the Unit and while there was not much enthusiasm
for the Demo I have to admit to be underwhelmed also at the time , anyway as I was looking at the Demo CDs they were using I was approached
by a Kondo gentleman who enquired that he could do me an amazing deal on the Amp on the spot if I was interested.

With the un involving playback just witnessed I declined as I'd heard better Japanese Integrateds
-must admit haven't read/heard many positives since on the Kondo.

On reflection later two aspects came to mind at the launch of a "new" product -seemed strange to want to 'sell it immediately
and in a rather "clandestine" way as I'm told that selling on the CES floor is/was forbidden and exhibitors had been banished before for such indiscretions If discovered:(

Yes Stick with your CJ's--and with the lockdown you can listen in your PJ's:eek:

sorry!

BruceD
 

Big Dog RJ

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Re. Spirit: I seemed to have missed a point in your earlier post, regarding the weight of the Spec disc. I'm not sure that I quite understood by your concern of 335g resting on a mag lev platter was it? Can you kindly further elaborate, as I was under the impression that 335g was negligible, being fairly light... Perhaps I missed something, how is this going to cause a problem with your specific TT? Is there any other way to accommodate the Spec disc if you were to use one?

Re. Bruce D: Yes, I certainly agree on the Kondo-Audio Note gear. In fact the few times I did audition both the Kogaru monoblocks and the Overture, I was quite impressed with the gear they were using and partnered speakers. However, what I experienced was a special, specific kind of sound, not something that would be appreciated by using the K-AN with any speakers, rather certain types of speakers. Being mostly horn loaded, two-way monitors, benign loads or even hybrid stats, seemed to work better without posing much strain. Then again, that mostly depended on how loud you wanted playback levels to go, as was the case when I experienced the Overture driving the Quads ESL2905 at the time. On low to moderate levels it was great, so are most of my listening sessions, since they happen after midnight. In the long term, as a final speaker preference, I always had an affinity towards full range stats, and I'm afraid that the fine K-AN gear wouldn't do justice in driving ML CLX's to their full potential, plus dealing with their impedence swing, and driving both bass panels, consisting of triple stators with dual diaphragms. This would no doubt place much stress on a single stereo amp, based on a SET 32w EL34 for that matter....

Although I've used and sold numerous amplifiers comprising mostly of tube gear, for some reason I always find myself coming back to CJ. I did have great experiences having owned VTL, Manley Labs and ARC gear for a while but I'm not sure what it is, CJ amplification has always remained in the system over the decades in various iterations and upgrades. So even to this day, I'm sending off my monoblocks upstate for a final Teflon Cap layout, plus those superb Vishay resistors. Might as well keep what I've got and provide the best for them in terms of all possible upgrades with the highest quality parts. After all, JF is the new chief, leading both sides when it comes to running the business and head of tech/service. Therefore, he believes that further upgrades can be carried out in terms of SE "special edition" versions, and whiles I have access to such upgrades, might as well get it done.

Like you say, enjoy the CJ's in your PJ's... most definitely agree, since that's my attire when I'm listening at night!
Cheers matey, RJ
 
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spiritofmusic

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RJ, it's within reason. My main issue is availability, atm the only ready source is from Japan, and after a previous negative experience, I remain wary.
 

Big Dog RJ

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RJ, it's within reason. My main issue is availability, atm the only ready source is from Japan, and after a previous negative experience, I remain wary.
Fair enough Spirit.
I can certainly understand that, especially after any negative experience it always leaves a bad taste.
I've ordered plenty of items, such as tubes, cables, power cords etc., from the US and UK, apart from my trusted main dealers. I must say so far so good! Similarly I was wondering if it's of any help or peace of mind to order the disc from our local importer here in Aus. You could perhaps get in contact with them and discuss shipping / handling costs and arrive at a price point. Place the order and will arrive at your door! Just a thought...

Anyway, do let me know how it goes.
Atm listening to Ahmad Jamal, superb!
Cheers mate, RJ
 

ack

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spiritofmusic

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Tasos, I thought you were an Isodamp man? Did you compare Isodamp to the Spec? If so, can you describe differences?
 

Syntax

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Hi RJ,

Very interesting question. Let me quote original findings of a fellow engineer Korf Audio:

http://korfaudio.com/blog44

He measured bearing noise in a simple TT and found in his setup that a vast majority of it comes from...the LP playback! Even with a simple and unpretentious bearing (and idler drive), the bearing noise was v small compared
to the traces of the musical program being played. It gets there, heavily filtered, from the vinyl THROUGH THE MAT to the platter and to the spindle. Now some of it may get further to the chassis, some bounces back to the platter/mat/LP. Hence, LP mat is actually ..


I - and others - know that for more than 20 years.
Sometimes I wonder with how much no_knowledge this business runs.
And when someone talks about it, he will be stoned ( from those who think they know something but in reality they are opinionated only)
Everyone wants to sells his overpriced midclass (from sonics) units and that is what counts
Good luck.
Btw. the same you will find with Tonearm recommendations or - abilities. Beyond low level.
 
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