JackD201 - Version 2.0

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
1,557
330
83
#61
I compared CH L1 with M1 mono with Pandora and Mephisto stereo,yes mono are better than stereo,with Esoteric Grandioso transport and dac and Tad R1 mk II in the shop of my friend and FOR ME really CH was much better in everything,more fast,detail and musical and bigger scene

My friend has CH L1.P1 and A1 mono with Alexandria and is a perfect match,very fast,a lot of details and bass very controlled,before had Viva Aurora,good but no comparison
Than Wilson i find has always mid bass too full and need to control and with CH seems a perfect match
 

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
1,557
330
83
#62
Here with my A1 stereo to try VS Viva Aurora,and A1 was already enough,with some song we saw on display also 450 watt,then he sold Viva and bought my A1 mono
 

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DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2010
6,135
133
63
La Jolla, Calif USA
#63
Gian, you have indeed had a lot of tube amps, but the latest ones with the new KT 120’s and better still, the KT150’s, are a game changer....just saying:)
I think if you haven’t heard what the mighty KT150’s can do, a trip to your local dealer might be in order...but be prepared to let go of your ss amp:oops:
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,514
948
113
Beverly Hills, CA
#64
I love that Viva Aurora — but not necessarily on such a big speaker with so many big cones to control.
 
Likes: DaveyF

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,269
241
63
Manila, Philippines
#65
I have been watching the CH space with great care, paying particular attention to Gian60 and Arnie as well as you, all of whom have tremendous experience, are big fans of tubes...and have moved from some of the world's best tubes (Kondo, VTL and Lamm) over to CH.

As a big fan of Zanden, CJ on the front end...and a big Gryphon in the back end for power...what am I likely to hear if i substituted the Gryphon for a CH M1 stereo?
Hi Lloyd, In a nutshell, I think you will be left with more of your Zanden and CJ imprint. That was the case when I played with the JPA66 as pre, The L2 Reference and the P135 with the M1s. I find the M1s the most colorless amps I have on hand followed by the VA200s. With their adjustable gain stages I also found no penalty driving the M1s via their single ended inputs. For safety I might use the cap filter setting instead of HiZ for peace of mind re: DC blocking.
 

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
1,557
330
83
#66
I listen Jadis and Arc with 120 or 150,i don't remember,much better than 6550 and kt 88,but is not my sound.
SET or PP of 2A3,300b,or similar are much better for me,even if less power,but i always had mid high sensitive speaker

Viva Aurora is good but no special,always mid bass too full and bass no well controlled
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,269
241
63
Manila, Philippines
#67
Gian, you have indeed had a lot of tube amps, but the latest ones with the new KT 120’s and better still, the KT150’s, are a game changer....just saying:)
I think if you haven’t heard what the mighty KT150’s can do, a trip to your local dealer might be in order...but be prepared to let go of your ss amp:oops:
Game changer for the money for sure. In my experience there are areas where I like the 120 over the 150. I don't find the 150 superior across the board. The game changing tube for me is the 842vhd but it is hideously more expensive not just per tube but also because you'll need more of them.

Again of course tubes are only a "part" of the story. Pun intended.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2010
6,135
133
63
La Jolla, Calif USA
#68
I listen Jadis and Arc with 120 or 150,i don't remember,much better than 6550 and kt 88,but is not my sound.
SET or PP of 2A3,300b,or similar are much better for me,even if less power,but i always had mid high sensitive speaker

Viva Aurora is good but no special,always mid bass too full and bass no well controlled
Gian, if you listened to to either ARC or Jadis with KT120's, then you really haven't heard what the KT150 brings. ARC and Jadis are also different sound, one of the reasons that I went with Jadis with KT150 vs ARC with KT150.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,876
107
63
#69
Hi Lloyd, In a nutshell, I think you will be left with more of your Zanden and CJ imprint. That was the case when I played with the JPA66 as pre, The L2 Reference and the P135 with the M1s. I find the M1s the most colorless amps I have on hand followed by the VA200s. With their adjustable gain stages I also found no penalty driving the M1s via their single ended inputs. For safety I might use the cap filter setting instead of HiZ for peace of mind re: DC blocking.
Thanks Jack and Gian! A few questions:

1. Since you have heard the FM Acoustics, would you liken their sound/character to something of that order, but perhaps with more power in the bass region than its comparably powered 200 watt counterpart in the FM lineup?

2. Regarding DC blocking...let me ask you a different question...what does this do? I am wondering if even a teeny bit of DC from a tube DAC or preamp (Zanden/CJ in my case) might be bad for an amp like Gryphon? Some amps apparently react differently/designed with more or fewer filters relative to incoming DC.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,876
107
63
#70
I compared CH L1 with M1 mono with Pandora and Mephisto stereo,yes mono are better than stereo,with Esoteric Grandioso transport and dac and Tad R1 mk II in the shop of my friend and FOR ME really CH was much better in everything,more fast,detail and musical and bigger scene

My friend has CH L1.P1 and A1 mono with Alexandria and is a perfect match,very fast,a lot of details and bass very controlled,before had Viva Aurora,good but no comparison
Than Wilson i find has always mid bass too full and need to control and with CH seems a perfect match
Thank you. Very interesting, and having just spoken with an owner of a full CH Precision system...who also came from exclusively tubes for a LONG time...it was interesting that his comments are very similar to yours and JackD201s...

The amp itself is not organic (which some other amps are)...but rather the CH passes through so much of the original signal (beginning, middle, end, the meat of the note and the start/finish/decay of the note), that you feel like you've experienced the full quality of the original note...making it organic.

That is how i understood it from this owner.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,606
53
48
Metro DC
#71
Spectacular room Jack and quite a journey - congratulations on what must be an amazing sounding system!

For me the Ultra 11s are all about effortless scale and speed but giving up nothing in finesse and detail = simply jaw dropping realism.

Cheers, Joe
"effortless"s indeed.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
2,719
110
63
#72
The CH Paradox

The history of CH here on WBF had a rocky start. One that involved accusations that a member touting the brand so enthusiastically was a US dealer from the east coast in disguise. I was a mod here back then and IP checks done by Steve and myself showed that the accused was in a city far away from New York. Over two hours by plane far. The animosity came and went and it would be a couple of years before I got the fateful message from Double O Gary Kho.

Through the years however, a trend began to develop. While members explored as usual, those landing in the CH camp were switching over from tube land. Guy with vaccum tube bomb avatar (see left) has own theory and here it is.

I think that there are fundamentally two kinds of tube guys. There are those that prize the linearity of triodes most highly and those that prize the warmth some tube designs offer most highly. It shows in the preferences in tube types and tubes within those types too. Are you a Telefunker or a Mullardator? LOL Okay obviously I am oversimplifying this. Hey it's just a theory ok? In any case, I have gathered that those switching to CH are the Telefunkers for lack of a better descriptor. OTLers and 2a3-ers doesn't have the same ring to it. Anyways...........the guys that like speed and delicacy because rough edges drive us nuts and overhang puts us to sleep really quickly.

In the past when it was said that a solid state amp sounded tube like it meant that it was smooth and perhaps warm. You never heard from anybody that a solid state amp sounded tubelike in terms of articulation particularly when it comes to ambience. These amps were almost always zero feedback pure class A designs. The bias indeed reduces the zero crossing distortion or eliminates it altogether. Such was my love for my Aleph 0 and my other love, the age defying M1.2 Reference.

So here are the funkers and the mullardy guys are saying we're nuts. NOT tubelike they yell! Peace out bros, my theory is we aren't talking about the same aspects. No CH will not give you the hot chocolate with marshmallows feeling..........unless it's on the recording :eek:

With all this talk of traits, I'll get right to it. The M1s are a technological marvel IMO. It does the very difficult space thing. It is so flexible and expandable that if you really put the work in optimizing your amp settings to go with your room and loudspeakers, I am confident that you will not just get good sound out of the box, you just may well hit it out of the park. I feel I have and there are things I haven't tried yet. Still, the trait I appreciate most might seem the most mundane on the surface.

I love the M1 because it is predictable. If you've ever witnessed a presentation handled by Allen or Nishikawa-san, yeah sure it can get scary loud but be painless as it goes about it. That is still not the most impressive part. I've heard the M1s bang on four different makes of loudspeakers and in every instance I've never, never seen them flinch as the crescendos start to roll in. This is what I am experiencing at home too. I know now that break-in is largely over that the amp will resolve through any signal passed through it without exhibiting typical IM and Thermal distortion. I know it will just do its job from the lowest sounds to beyond levels I wish to go. Best of all, I know that it will play softly beautifully which is how I actually listen most of the time.
Interesting hypothesis.

I guess this probe has a lot to do with the "triode with POWER" characteristics of CH.

See an early M1 being built here...
 

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JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,269
241
63
Manila, Philippines
#73
I'm not familiar with that wisnon. Could you help explain please? :)
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
2,719
110
63
#74
part of what makes tube amps special is the correct bias at corresponding temp. CH does similar for SS, actively fine tuning the bias based on the data read from that temp probe. I got the explanation years ago from Florian when I wanted to do a writeup. Unfortunately, by the time they got back to me with factory photos, it was too late for me to write a current article.
 
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LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,876
107
63
#75
There [may] be a chance to hear the CH M1.1 in a few weeks. Having now settled on the Gryphon Mephisto, it would take a LOT to move that amp (literally and figuratively) from its rightful place in the system. But we shall see...
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 14, 2015
614
46
28
California
www.vonschweikert.com
#76
I just got home from my visit to Thailand followed by a visit to Manila where I got to hang out with Jack and Jimmy as well as some others like Sam and others close to the family. WOW! I didn't want to leave. This visit was a fantastic experience for me. So was my first trip to the Philippines but so many changes have been done it was an entirely different experience.

Our first stop was Jack's to hear the ULTRA 11's with the CH Precision electronics. I brought cables with me that Jack needed in order to try the different configurations that the CH gear had to offer. So we put the new cables in and switched configurations and allowed for a little settle in time. We next headed over to Sam's where we got to hear the stacked quads. WOW!!!! Sam had three different types of cakes for us and I had to eat all three lol. And the juice was simply fantastic. It was both a tummy and sonic treat.

The next visit was Jimmy's where he he now has all the CS footers installed. I'm not even going to begin to talk about this system and the music we heard.

What I am going to talk about is the synergy I got to hear with the CH gear. My only experience with this gear has been at the audio shows on other manufacturers speakers. What I experienced at Jack's was on an entirely different level. I know now that the CH Precision electronics are a wonderful match for our speakers and I was extremely thrilled to finally be able to experience this combo. I was also very sad to leave because that last couple of hours of listening I was in shock on how much they started to resemble the sound of tubes. I look forward to hearing these electronics on our speakers in the future and hopefully we can show at an audio show sometime. Over the few days we were there I simply fell in love with them. They have a new fan

Thank you both Jack and Jimmy for an experience I will never forget! See you next year lol
 
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Jun 5, 2010
863
18
18
#77
Hi Leif,

It's always a pleasure to chat and to listen with you. It's good to know you got home safely. I look forward to seeing you again. When I visit Southern California again, I hope to hear your home system.
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,269
241
63
Manila, Philippines
#78
I've got lot's to write about so stay tuned, pun intended :D
 

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