Just how does one learn to listen?

Bobvin

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In the thread about judging sound quality and room/setup contributions, Tima posted:
...
To me, for those uncertain about their room and setup, more important than hiring an expert to setup your room, would be hiring an expert to teach/train you how to listen, and listen so that you trust your own ears. Start with live music then move to the audio room.

At the risk of turning enjoyment of music into an intellectual distraction, I for one would love to hear what many of those on this forum use for their criteria in listening, what they listen for, and how they judge.

In the world of wine, there is a grid — you evaluate appearance (clarity, brightness, color, intensity, secondary colors, miniscus, viscosity), nose and palate (condition, intensity, aroma/bouquet, fruit/flower/herb/other, earth, oak), and structure (sweetness, body, acidity, alcohol, tannin, complexity, length, balance). From these initial and final conclusions are drawn. These are the basics of evaluating wine, skills which a sommelier will hone over time. There are organizations that test these skills and one can become a level 1 sommelier up through a master sommelier.

As a geeky engineer who actually tries to avoid getting highly analytical when it comes to enjoying music, I have imagined what might go into a similar “listening grid.” Sonics like bass depth, intensity, impact, tone, detail (same for mids and highs), soundstage width, depth, height, forward or recessed; transient response, decay, etc. Of course, there is the reference of live music.

To my knowledge, the audio world is made up of a lot of self proclaimed experts, with wildly different opinions. In the world of wine there differing opinions too, but there is also general consensus which allows for judging a persons skill level. A Master Sommelier is a person in high demand, commands a significant salary, the opinion and scores of a Master Sommelier can make or break a wine or winery. An audio reviewer's opinions also can have a significant impact on the success of a product. But the audio world is absent organizations which judge the judges.

As a reviewer, perhaps you can share what are your criteria and how you go about reviewing. And if there are experts who can teach/train someone how to listen, I'd love to have recommendations. I'm sure my own critical listening skills can improve greatly.

I'd love to read comments from Ked, Tang, David, Ron, MikeL and others.
 

Mike Lavigne

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below is only offered as a thought starter on this subject. for 20 years i have been a judge in a speaker building contest mostly every other year for our local audio society. Bruce Brown has also been a judge many of those years, and the dear departed Winston Ma was also a judge a number of times.

this form was used by the judges to attempt to apply some degree of objective measurement to compare speakers listened to blindly. we had to choose a winner.

i can say trying to use a list like this to rate what you hear under time pressure is not a way to have a relaxing day. every time i ended up with a headache about 2 hours into the process. but listening blinded did recalibrate me a bit too. i was use to my system. this was different. and i'm more about connection and feelings and realism, than pieces of the sound.

this list does not answer the question you are asking. but it does maybe get one to think about things in an organized way. a place to start when using listening for system building.

and over the many years in some ways i improved and evolved, in other ways it was harder (maybe i was less tolerant or more picky). and maybe having to sort though stuff on this list is a building block to deeper viewpoints.


1662137019226.png
 
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andromedaaudio

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I havent listened to " authorative " figures all my life .
Im certainly not gonna listen to a reviewer lol.
Teaching andromeda " how " to listen is a waiste of time.

Listening to music is a relaxation/ past time event .
No musts no obligations , nothing
 
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Bobvin

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To be sure, the question is related to critical listening and evaluation. When time comes to listen for enjoyment I trust we’re quite capable.
 

andromedaaudio

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Im not so sure about that .
It often seems to me that talking about listening is the goal ...
the best amp the best speaker the best cable the best recording .and .now .the best listener ....the best expert ..
etc etc
 
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ddk

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In the thread about judging sound quality and room/setup contributions, Tima posted:


At the risk of turning enjoyment of music into an intellectual distraction, I for one would love to hear what many of those on this forum use for their criteria in listening, what they listen for, and how they judge.

In the world of wine, there is a grid — you evaluate appearance (clarity, brightness, color, intensity, secondary colors, miniscus, viscosity), nose and palate (condition, intensity, aroma/bouquet, fruit/flower/herb/other, earth, oak), and structure (sweetness, body, acidity, alcohol, tannin, complexity, length, balance). From these initial and final conclusions are drawn. These are the basics of evaluating wine, skills which a sommelier will hone over time. There are organizations that test these skills and one can become a level 1 sommelier up through a master sommelier.

As a geeky engineer who actually tries to avoid getting highly analytical when it comes to enjoying music, I have imagined what might go into a similar “listening grid.” Sonics like bass depth, intensity, impact, tone, detail (same for mids and highs), soundstage width, depth, height, forward or recessed; transient response, decay, etc. Of course, there is the reference of live music.

To my knowledge, the audio world is made up of a lot of self proclaimed experts, with wildly different opinions. In the world of wine there differing opinions too, but there is also general consensus which allows for judging a persons skill level. A Master Sommelier is a person in high demand, commands a significant salary, the opinion and scores of a Master Sommelier can make or break a wine or winery. An audio reviewer's opinions also can have a significant impact on the success of a product. But the audio world is absent organizations which judge the judges.

As a reviewer, perhaps you can share what are your criteria and how you go about reviewing. And if there are experts who can teach/train someone how to listen, I'd love to have recommendations. I'm sure my own critical listening skills can improve greatly.

I'd love to read comments from Ked, Tang, David, Ron, MikeL and others.
You already know my response Bob :)! Most important criteria is naturalness and realism, without natural sound the rest is irrelevant and garbage for me specially all the typical crap you read about and audiophiles where taught to listen for. Think of it like wine if it's corked what WTF are you going to rate it for?
To be sure, the question is related to critical listening and evaluation. When time comes to listen for enjoyment I trust we’re quite capable.
Good sign of garbage If I can't enjoy the music and critical mode kicks in without invocation. Now you have my unadulterated opinion of typical audiophile critical listening criteria and checklists :) !

david
 
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sbnx

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Everyone can listen (assuming they don't have unusual hearing damage). You can trust your ears and ask yourself "what is wrong with this?" Does this sound "natural" or "like live music"? The trick is to know what to do about it. There are six degrees of freedom of the speaker and 1 (or 2 if you move your ear height) degrees of freedom in the listening position. That is a lot of potential to adjust the sound.

But, It is better if someone demonstrates examples of what it is "supposed" to sound like. Trying to just tell someone what something should sound like is like telling them what a really good steak tastes like. You can tell them but until they taste it they really don't know what you are talking about.

A few things I listen for to detect poor setup are: 1. Do any of the bass notes stick out or is there heavyness or boomyness in the bass. 2. Do I feel even bass pressure. 3. is the soundstage "level" from left to right 4. Does the imaging drift one way or the other as frequency goes up 5. Is the sound of vocals forward or too laid back. Does it sound like the singer is shouting at you 6. Is the sound sibilant 7. Does the hall have a distinct space in classical recordings. 8. How does solo piano sound. Pretty much all of this relates to certain frequencies "sticking out". Then there is timing. Do the musicians play together or does it sound like a hot mess with a bunch of amateurs playing.
 

Bobvin

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Im not so sure about that .
It often seems to me that talking about listening is the goal ...
the best amp the best speaker the best cable the best recording .and .now .the best listener ....the best expert ..
etc etc
Why I didn't chime in on other "best" threads. It is well known around here I am the best (at least my wife tells me regularly, bless her heart!)

I said, "honey, you're the best"
She said, "no, you're the best"
I said, "yeah, you're right!" (then slept in the dog house!)
 

Solypsa

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Most all of us have watched someone struggle to love, and convince themselves of the merit of, an expensive, rare AND corked bottle of wine ;)
 
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Don Reid

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A very important prerequisite to becoming a good listener is to have heard very much live music and have paid attention to the sound of the different instruments and ensembles. It also helps if you have made music yourself. I am frequently grateful for having played in my high school band for for five years a little over half a century ago. This gratitude comes to mind when I can easily distinguish between similar instruments, the lower register of alto saxophone and the upper register tenor sax for example.
I have two distinct modes of listening to a stereo, and I try to keep them separate. In the first mode I am a technophile judging how realistic the music sounds, especially do voices sound like real people. How resolving is the system, transients, dynamics, etc. In the second mode I kick back, close my eyes and let the wonderful music transport me to a glorious and beautiful place.
 

bonzo75

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Hi,

You are covering a broad range of topics by just saying listening.

1. Listening to the end resultant sound, what to look for in the sound
2. The process of auditioning/listening for evaluation
3. Listening from a musical perspective Vs listening for attributes, similar to what Mike has listed

There can be other offshoots

Attributes: What Mike has listed, is evaluating by attributes. You are looking for certain attributes, and if you identify them even in imperfect conditions, you can take a punt that you will be about to set it up better in ideal conditions. Of course in better conditions you can hear these attributes better

For example linearity (which Mike has down to 7hz) and ultra low noise floor are two of the attributes Mike’s system is based on. If he hears something that does this at a show, he might get it to try home.

People do this with TTs many times. For example if Techdas has good bass and layering and stage and is well engineered, but you don’t find nuance and soul, try with a linear tracking time arm or Glanz, etc and various carts to get that. You might not still get it, but you can try. You are talking a punt something is well engineered and you will try to supplement or complement its characteristic in your system

One of the best examples was the General deciding he wanted to play the purest LPs through the purest signal, on theory he got a single driver horn speaker and mated it with the lowest watts possible, no capacitors in the signal path, added linear tracking and a core less cartridge and it worked brilliantly. Normally most people would have spent 5 years trying a variety of combinations that did not work or given up too early. Happens all the time when people either under drive speakers or over grip them, or mismatch carts and tonearms, etc.

Listening. Now How do you know the attributes you have looked for, and also heard, result in good sound you are aiming for?

The reason I am not a fan of the attributes Mike listed is that lesser experienced people misuse them. They think that because Mike or some big name reviewer wrote about a particular characteristic, they make an assumption of what the characteristic is and don’t really understand it.

A guy once thought because I don’t like forward Cuddly stage, it is compressed recordings which shrink everything that I was looking for. You can see how things can be misunderstood.

Also, I find those who use amplified and audiophile recordings often listen forever to compare two components or to understand a system, and “upgrade” easily at small increases in some attributes.

I strongly believe you need to evaluate on classical, and train yourself on live music and good records to understand good sound. Even if you don’t go to live shows, good performances and recordings will help you understand things quicker and more accurately. Tang doesn’t get to go to live classical, but he certainly (usually) gets the sound from those records.

There is no way you can listen to a good Bach partita or Heifetz performance and not understand realism, and attributes such as nuance and agility in these performances. You don't have to be trained in classical. The reason people don't get this is they don't know, or haven't heard this music or these records. You will never consistently get flow and continuity like you get on classical, i.e. if the music has a stop start compared to if the system has a stop start characteristic. There has been a lot written about classical orchestra etc so i won’t repeat that.

Sure, if I find one lacking, I can say what attributes it lacked in....e.g. transients on violin was weak or there was not enough midbass to the piano body or not leading edge attack...

After classical use jazz, rock, or blues, but certainly not audiophile stuff that sounds like Stockfisch. I don't think one can understand a component with such music. Even for rock, to appreciate the bass and power you need original pressings. The remasters are all compressed and have their energy and bass cut off.

Auditioning: So now let's say you get a reasonable set of LPs and audition. There is listening to an LP in isolation and listening to a set of LPs. It is possible that you hear the first LP and get impressed, because bass, stage, realism is all there. But then you find the stage and characteristics repeating. What you want to hear is the recording's stage, not the speaker's constant stage. There is no way to explain this except you should hear it.

I think if all those with big speakers got in a set of small speakers with a simple integrated, they would be surprised. I have heard the smallest joachim garrard's speakers play through a Thrax integrated and the devore orangutans play through a NAF 2a3. Neither of the speakers have massive weight or such but the set up worked so well with the room that they just changed stage for and concert hall ambience withe ach LP, and the stage on my recordings was large. I had a 60k speaker in the room to compare that bored me with the same bass weight over and over.

I do have a friend here I visit often. When he switched his Allnic preamp to Soulution in an all Allnic set up, I said in 30 mins he should buy it. He kept it on audition for a month to decide then said I was right, and bought it. What was the difference? Sure, it was his cash, not mine, so he should take more time, but the thing is he plays poor music and records. He listens similar like I do when we play the same records, and his preferences are the same too, but it takes forever to listen and judge with his records and would have taken me a while too. It is the listening points that matter.

The other thing is that you should listen to a component to understand it. You only understand it if the character repeats. E.g. you listen to Lyra in a whole system and think it's rolled off. People make judgements about components playing in a whole system all the time, especially at shows. You will then leave the room assuming you are right because you have 20 years experience. The only way you actually know you are right, is if you hear Lyra again in a proper set up, isolate it and the character repeats. If now you hear a contradiction to your assumption, i.e. it is not rolled off, then you know you were wrong. If you never actually evaluate Lyra again, you will clap yourself on the back thinking you have made a good judgement call. People go through their audio career having heard a component once, formed a decision and never heard again.

Most people here do not try to understand a component, they just want to cross it off, so they wander around shows to give some semblance of reason to their purchase.

You need to have a regular set of LPs for audition and be familiar with passages. Ideally don't have ones where it takes 14 mins to listen to one spot, you should get it from the musical message of the snippet you listen to. It is not about that one tinkling sound of a cymbal crashing in the distance, but the whole musical passage. Don't listen for stand out sounds.

Also, I keep simple music to filter things out. If two things are both good, add something more complex, and if you cannot decide, then just call it evens. They are both good components and in the right system both will work so go with the best deal.

You need to keep bias out while listening - this is difficult given the money involved, and some people just want to do right by their philosophy. Easier said then done, but you need to meet people and listen to components you don't think matter. Like, for example, you owned Wilsons, but went to hear an efficient speaker and a planar, not another Wilson set up or Magico.

I will stop now this is taking longer than I thought it would and is prone to rambling.

ps: The above is if you listen as a consumer. As you are in the trade, you should give two hoots for Bach's Chaconne or Heifetz as most of your customers won't care. Also, it is then better to evaluate on attributes rather than the classical musical message, because that makes product selection and recommendation more generic.
 

tima

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As a reviewer, perhaps you can share what are your criteria and how you go about reviewing. And if there are experts who can teach/train someone how to listen, I'd love to have recommendations. I'm sure my own critical listening skills can improve greatly.

I"m guessing this is directed at me.

I learned how to listen by learning to play musical instruments. I learned piano starting at a young age with a neighborhood lady then a guy who played at a jazz bar downtown. I learned to play the clarinet in elementary school through college and had the first chair US Army Band at Ft Belvoir as my teacher in high school. I played electric organ in a rock band for several years. So playing an instrument is one way. Having a guide is helpful.

I thought of @PeterA who took a trip to the Musikverein in Vienna, spending time with someone associated with the Philharmonic, in the hall and at rehersal. I'm guessing you have a sizeable orchestra within distance. But then I recall, you don't listen to much classical music. It is not uncommon for classical musicians to play other types of music. You could contact your local orchestra and tell them "I want to learn how to listen to music but not classical music. Who should I learn from?" Sometimes church choirs will let you listen to rehersal. I'll speculate you want to hear from someone who understands not just music, but also music performance and listening in a performance space.

"Start with live music then move to the audio room." I am a strong believer in gaining an understanding of music by experiencing it live. If you primarily listen to stereo systems you are hearing reproduced music. How does the reproduced music in your audio room sound relative to the live music? Some of this has to do with vocabulary because that is what you use to express your thoughts to yourself. Try not to use the audiophile vocabulary -- at least not the parts of that vocabulary that are unique to reproduction -- to describe what you hear. I'll presumptuously say this can help you talk to your customers, if you want to do that.

Hire an acoustician or recording engineer who is comfortable talking to people -- he doesn't need to be an audiophile. Not for advice on how to do your room, but for information about how sound works in a room. When he sits in your room and listens, what does he hear? Listen to the language he uses for that description.

How do I go about reviewing? To some extent and I struggle with this, I am proscribed by the audiophile world in meeting reader's expectations. Apart from all the technology, what is il? stuff, in a nutshell I describe what I hear. To me a review is expository writing -- to expose the thing under review to someone else. I will listen to a record and write down what I hear while I'm hearing it. I will spend several months with the object of review. If I do enough of that I find patterns and correlations and sometimes anomolies from which I can generalize. But I use those in conjunction with listening descriptions of specific recordings. I use my knowledge of how acoustic instruments sound individually and together. I use my knowledge of musical score to understand what the musician is trying to accomplish. I ask myself, is it believable, is it realistic.

Have fun.
 

Rt66indierock

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In the thread about judging sound quality and room/setup contributions, Tima posted:


At the risk of turning enjoyment of music into an intellectual distraction, I for one would love to hear what many of those on this forum use for their criteria in listening, what they listen for, and how they judge.

In the world of wine, there is a grid — you evaluate appearance (clarity, brightness, color, intensity, secondary colors, miniscus, viscosity), nose and palate (condition, intensity, aroma/bouquet, fruit/flower/herb/other, earth, oak), and structure (sweetness, body, acidity, alcohol, tannin, complexity, length, balance). From these initial and final conclusions are drawn. These are the basics of evaluating wine, skills which a sommelier will hone over time. There are organizations that test these skills and one can become a level 1 sommelier up through a master sommelier.

As a geeky engineer who actually tries to avoid getting highly analytical when it comes to enjoying music, I have imagined what might go into a similar “listening grid.” Sonics like bass depth, intensity, impact, tone, detail (same for mids and highs), soundstage width, depth, height, forward or recessed; transient response, decay, etc. Of course, there is the reference of live music.

To my knowledge, the audio world is made up of a lot of self proclaimed experts, with wildly different opinions. In the world of wine there differing opinions too, but there is also general consensus which allows for judging a persons skill level. A Master Sommelier is a person in high demand, commands a significant salary, the opinion and scores of a Master Sommelier can make or break a wine or winery. An audio reviewer's opinions also can have a significant impact on the success of a product. But the audio world is absent organizations which judge the judges.

As a reviewer, perhaps you can share what are your criteria and how you go about reviewing. And if there are experts who can teach/train someone how to listen, I'd love to have recommendations. I'm sure my own critical listening skills can improve greatly.

I'd love to read comments from Ked, Tang, David, Ron, MikeL and others.
Be careful of what you wish for. Remember the Judgement of Paris in 1976? It blew up the whole French wine industry and now people make great wine everywhere. I watched it grow in Oregon. Then moved to Washington DC and watched it grow in Virginia. The best part is French wine got better because they started sharing information and “reexamining convictions that were little more myths taken on trust.”

The same thing may have happened with MQA in high-end audio or may be happening now with the court cases.
 
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microstrip

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We naturally enjoy real sound - we have been learning to listen since we were born, perhaps before according to some studies. As soon as we start listening to reproduced music in stereo we start a new process of learning - stereo sound is physically very different from real sound.

in some sense learning to listen is a way do develop and perfect preferences - if we have guidelines to listen we are creating them. One of the most known guides to listening is the Harman How to Listen application that trains people to detect and identify sound reproduction characteristics and artifacts. Years ago I researched it it but after reading feedback from users I immediately decided to avoid it - I feared it would reduce my listening enjoyment.

IMHO the only way to evaluate is listening to a system with many types of recordings, including some amplfied music we usually listen live.
 

the sound of Tao

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In the thread about judging sound quality and room/setup contributions, Tima posted:


At the risk of turning enjoyment of music into an intellectual distraction, I for one would love to hear what many of those on this forum use for their criteria in listening, what they listen for, and how they judge.

In the world of wine, there is a grid — you evaluate appearance (clarity, brightness, color, intensity, secondary colors, miniscus, viscosity), nose and palate (condition, intensity, aroma/bouquet, fruit/flower/herb/other, earth, oak), and structure (sweetness, body, acidity, alcohol, tannin, complexity, length, balance). From these initial and final conclusions are drawn. These are the basics of evaluating wine, skills which a sommelier will hone over time. There are organizations that test these skills and one can become a level 1 sommelier up through a master sommelier.

As a geeky engineer who actually tries to avoid getting highly analytical when it comes to enjoying music, I have imagined what might go into a similar “listening grid.” Sonics like bass depth, intensity, impact, tone, detail (same for mids and highs), soundstage width, depth, height, forward or recessed; transient response, decay, etc. Of course, there is the reference of live music.

To my knowledge, the audio world is made up of a lot of self proclaimed experts, with wildly different opinions. In the world of wine there differing opinions too, but there is also general consensus which allows for judging a persons skill level. A Master Sommelier is a person in high demand, commands a significant salary, the opinion and scores of a Master Sommelier can make or break a wine or winery. An audio reviewer's opinions also can have a significant impact on the success of a product. But the audio world is absent organizations which judge the judges.

As a reviewer, perhaps you can share what are your criteria and how you go about reviewing. And if there are experts who can teach/train someone how to listen, I'd love to have recommendations. I'm sure my own critical listening skills can improve greatly.

I'd love to read comments from Ked, Tang, David, Ron, MikeL and others.
Before we ask how to listen and what to listen for we should maybe start with asking why we are listening in the first place. If we are listening to appreciate sound that is not the same as listening to appreciate music. How we evaluate how to listen needs to be framed in terms of purpose. There are enmeshed overlaps between making sounds and conveying music but also there are distinctions. Systems can be great at making the parts of sounds but not great at conveying music. That’s where defining the reason we are listening becomes the framework for what to listen for.

Also equally un-nourishing could be if what we set for ourselves as an ideal system for listening to hi-fi even in being ideally natural or approaching realism then constrains us from being able to listen to the best music performances if listening to music is the chosen goal. While that’s just my preference it’s also a determination that sets up what’s best for me and what I then extend to evaluate in my listening.

If we’re talking about playing music there is also perhaps nothing very natural about listening to the same music performance over and over again. Not wanting to be heretical :eek: but this is a fairly synthetic act in itself. Being locked into very limited experiences of music may not actually be the ideal though it’s certainly a safe way to chase sounds. Hiding away in familiar places and not exploring music because we are too busy safely listening to familiar sounds can be a trap when we get caught up in endless analysing of things… and its fine if that’s what someone wants but then also the choice of system and formats can then be considered as a pass or fail in terms of their creating access to music or framing experiences in terms of some purely sonic focus.

We are all here to get our needs fulfilled in particular ways but I do think these can also change quite a deal through time. A lifetime listening to sounds may be good for some but then not at a cost for listening to music for others.

I just figure that knowing purpose is the start to working out how to do things… for some what is the point of having untainted sound only to realise that the music inside it is corked :rolleyes:
 
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Ron Resnick

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The other thing is that you should listen to a component to understand it. You only understand it if the character repeats. E.g. you listen to Lyra in a whole system and think it's rolled off. People make judgements about components playing in a whole system all the time, especially at shows. You will then leave the room assuming you are right because you have 20 years experience. The only way you actually know you are right, is if you hear Lyra again in a proper set up, isolate it and the character repeats. If now you hear a contradiction to your assumption, i.e. it is not rolled off, then you know you were wrong. If you never actually evaluate Lyra again, you will clap yourself on the back thinking you have made a good judgement call. People go through their audio career having heard a component once, formed a decision and never heard again.

+1
 

Tango

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Why I didn't chime in on other "best" threads. It is well known around here I am the best (at least my wife tells me regularly, bless her heart!)

I said, "honey, you're the best"
She said, "no, you're the best"
I said, "yeah, you're right!" (then slept in the dog house!)
That's the spirit Bob. You have a great life and a great wife who has wisdom in living...being appreciative of what she is having and eager to say it. Her saying is the most natural, normal without having to address other possibility out there in the world.

Now about the thread subject. First I am no scholar of sound and has no 30 years experience. I am just a hobbyist who like to "observe" things around me and not taking for granted of the nature around us. I can only point general direction. One has to "observe" the sound around us cleverly himself. And eventually I believe will realize quite a few things adding up to become his North Star.

Most practical thing to practice listening is to observe and listen to sound within your house. This is natural sound. No need to listen to instrument. Learning the sound of instrument is a must but can come later imo. First listen to "natural presentation" of sound. Listen to your wife talking to you from the library. Listen to your son doing dishes complaining from the kitchen. Those sound has natural presentation. What is the natural presentation? Well you have to observe it yourself. No need Peter or ddk or Tima or I, the Natural Sound TM bunch to tell anyone. Observe. Observe. Observe. Then go back to listen to your favorite recordings through your stereo. Try to recall the sound presentation you hear in the living room. Compare it to the sound presentation you hear from your stereo. Eventually one will realize so many recordings dont have natural presentation. And good ones have many more aspects of presentation in approximation to natural sound. Once you realize how natural presentation is next step is to drop in the sound of instrument and music into that presentation framework. Study the sound of instrument. Observe each type. Observe. Observe. Observe. Then you put them together and can evaluate the level of natural sound resemblance.

Pretty much that for me.
Tang
 
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PeterA

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That's the spirit Bob. You have a great life and a great wife who has wisdom in living...being appreciative of what she is having and eager to say it. Her saying is the most natural, normal without having to address other possibility out there in the world.

Now about the thread subject. First I am no scholar of sound and has no 30 years experience. I am just a hobbyist who like to "observe" things around me and not taking for granted of the nature around us. I can only point general direction. One has to "observe" the sound around us cleverly himself. And eventually I believe will realize quite a few things adding up to become his North Star.

Most practical thing to practice listening is to observe and listen to sound within your house. This is natural sound. No need to listen to instrument. Learning the sound of instrument is a must but can come later imo. First listen to "natural presentation" of sound. Listen to your wife talking to you from the library. Listen to your son doing dishes complaining from the kitchen. Those sound has natural presentation. What is the natural presentation? Well you have to observe it yourself. No need Peter or ddk or Tima or I, the Natural Sound TM bunch to tell anyone. Observe. Observe. Observe. Then go back to listen to your favorite recordings through your stereo. Try to recall the sound presentation you hear in the living room. Compare it to the sound presentation you hear from your stereo. Eventually one will realize so many recordings dont have natural presentation. Once you realize how natural presentation is next step is to drop in the sound of instrument and music into that presentation framework. Study the sound of instrument. Observe each type. Observe. Observe. Observe. Then you put them together and can evaluate the level of natural sound resemblance.

Pretty much that for me.
Tang

Great post Tang. For me a big moment came when member VLS with others just heard my system and was getting up to leave and say goodbye. I listened to his voice and then closed my eyes and listened some more. That’s when I fully realized about pinpoint imaging and the presentation of the sound of his voice in my room. That experience corresponded with my complete rethinking about system set up with the guidance from ddk for a more natural presentation of my existing gear. Observation of the natural world is very important.
 

bonzo75

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Great post Tang. For me a big moment came when member VLS with others just heard my system and was getting up to leave and say goodbye. I listened to his voice and then closed my eyes and listened some more. That’s when I fully realized about pinpoint imaging and the presentation of the sound of his voice in my room. That experience corresponded with my complete rethinking about system set up with the guidance from ddk for a more natural presentation of my existing gear. Observation of the natural world is very important.

This is a good idea. When I visit people I will charge them when I say goodbye to close their eyes. There can then be a consistent voice to compare across all audiophiles
 

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