KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[DaveC]

Actually, transparency comes from simple crossovers and simple circuits.

There are many paths to nirvana...

 

[the sound of Tao]

There are many paths to nirvana...

Also like the line: Just because I am not on your path doesn’t mean that I’m actually lost.

 

[DaveC]

I'm sure every Magico owner is really chilled to hear a brand they've invested serious money into doesn't compare to Devore.

Not likely as it's not reality...

It's no secret I prefer and own a simple single driver based system but it's not the best at everything. A higher end Magico will destroy any Devore when it comes to playing more complex music and there's simply no way around it.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Ked when you changed your direction away from the Devores I thought later that this was good because the 0/96s did play classical in a way but I found them much better suited at smaller music (and jazz ofcourse) and given much of the music that you play I didn’t find this type was their real strength (especially when things swapped up into large scale and complex).

That was also why I suggested the Harbeth 40.2s as they were working beautifully with the SET as well, but on reflection they have quite a complex crossover and definitely don’t reveal differences in recordings as much as the 20.7s... but the PAP horns however very much do and they have just a simple first order crossover with just one cap for the widebander compression driver horn (which I am about to upgrade the cap and resistors in that as well).

 

[KeithR]

There are many paths to nirvana...

big +1

and i've heard several single driver speakers (most recently the Shindo Lafite) and many SETs

 

[bonzo75]

[QUOTE="DaveC, post: 557
It's no secret I prefer and own a simple single driver based system but it's not the best at everything. A higher end Magico will destroy any Devore when it comes to playing more complex music and there's simply no way around it.[/QUOTE]

actually, we were discussing transparency to recordings and inert cabinetS. Not other stuff

 

[spiritofmusic]

Isn't capitalism predicated on as many ways to Nirvana that make a profit?

 

[bonzo75]

Ked when you changed your direction away from the Devores I thought later that this was good because the 0/96s did play classical in a way but I found them much better suited at smaller music (and jazz ofcourse) and given much of the music that Ked plays I didn’t find this type was their real strength (especially when things swapped up into large scale and complex).

That was also why I suggested the Harbeth 40.2s as they were working beautifully with the SET as well, but on reflection they have quite a complex crossover and definitely don’t reveal differences in recordings as much as the 20.7s... but the PAP horns however very much do and they gave a simple first order crossover with just one cap for the widebander compression driver horn (which I am about to upgrade the cap and resistors in that as well).

Both the tannoys and devores are not being recommended as all out assault speakers. They are back up to big horns and other SOTA speakers. To do everything from small chamber to big orchestra properly you need a really big room. Otherwise you produce good facsimile of big orchestra. By having something transparent to good recordings, that does not boom in average sized rooms, they are superb. However playing good recordings and wanting to hear differences in concerts is key. And the tone is much more real. You can get better separation with the typical cones on large orchestra, but with more driver incoherence, less tone, bass boom, and lack of transparency to recordings

 

[the sound of Tao]

Isn't capitalism predicated on as many ways to Nirvana that make a profit?

Sorry Marc but I was looking for the unlike button for this post. Besides I’m not sure that there will be a British word for profit post Brexit. Was going to punctuate with lol but realised there was little to laugh about in the last line of my post.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tao, disaster capitalists are absolutely rubbing their hands w glee, there is so much money to be made from recession.

And after this short OT break...

 

[DaveC]

actually, we were discussing transparency to recordings and inert cabinetS. Not other stuff

Actually, do you not see the relationship between being able to reproduce what's on the recording to transparency to the recording?

Inert cabinets really matter most on complex music, so there's that too. That's part of the reason Magico and similar speakers are so fussy about cabinets. Single driver and wideband speaker cabinets don't matter quite as much as they simply can't resolve complex music to the degree Magico and other similar speakers can.

The truth is a lot of aspects of speaker design are totally blown up and made to be more important than they are for marketing purposes. Without having designed and built and tested a lot of these things it's hard to know what's what. Even if you have, designers tend to take their own experiences as the entirety of possibilities. Larger companies are unlikely to share proprietary info they have worked hard to understand outside of how it can benefit their marketing departments. Listen, that's cool you've heard a lot of gear, but I've actually designed and built gear too. I live in the Denver area, which has no shortage of amazing HiFi companies and systems, and is home to RMAF. I currently own 2 systems that are pretty dang good... so you might want to check your attitude son.

 

[bonzo75]

Actually, do you not see the relationship between being able to reproduce what's on the recording to transparency to the recording?

Inert cabinets really matter most on complex music, so there's that too. That's part of the reason Magico and similar speakers are so fussy about cabinets. Single driver and wideband speaker cabinets don't matter quite as much as they simply can't resolve complex music to the degree Magico and other similar speakers can.

Actually, separating instruments and transparency to recordings are different things. You can put 4 LPs on and they will separate 50 instruments better on Magico. I never said no.

 

[Folsom]

I don't agree with anything Ked is posting atm, today. Simple circuits and crossovers equal transparency? Might as well be a flat-earther. Just because there's a lot of evidence (anecdotal) doesn't make it so. If you have a huge swath of manufacturers that make "complicated" things poorly, that isn't causation for all "complicated" things to be bad. And for the record I've never heard a single order crossover that didn't smear some - EVER. Lots of SS gear that was meant to be simple ends up coming across as lacking resolution among other things. Tubes tend to either be "complicated" or simple and taking on plenty of extra character/coloration.

Personally I'd blame the electronics for problems first over "complicated" speakers that measure ok. Although I can say some older Magico's had crossovers that were persnickety. To me it seems like a lot of the dislikes of some speakers (like Magico) fade when you start using electronics like you would for something like the O 96's. The problem is that they often don't translate over well for bass due to lack of power. I could go on forever... I guess my real point is I don't prescribe to these little theories that haven't shown to be true anymore than to just reconfirm someone likes their stereo that isn't something else. I mean, you ever seen what the Pass phono section looks like? I don't anyone really would claim it sounds bad but simple IT IS NOT. The examples don't end.

I'll get to comment in a bit about the review, Keith.

 

[DaveC]

Actually, separating instruments and transparency to recordings are different things. You can put 4 LPs on and they will separate 50 instruments better on Magico. I never said no.

You still don't get it. The question is Transparency to WHAT recording?

Simpler speakers may be more transparent on simpler music vs a traditional multi-way speaker, but it's the other way around with more complex music.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't agree with anything Ked is posting atm, today. Simple circuits and crossovers equal transparency? Might as well be a flat-earther. Just because there's a lot of evidence (anecdotal) doesn't make it so. If you have a huge swath of manufacturers that make "complicated" things poorly, that isn't causation for all "complicated" things to be bad. And for the record I've never heard a single order crossover that didn't smear some - EVER. Lots of SS gear that was meant to be simple ends up coming across as lacking resolution among other things. Tubes tend to either be "complicated" or simple and taking on plenty of extra character/coloration.

Personally I'd blame the electronics for problems first over "complicated" speakers that measure ok. Although I can say some older Magico's had crossovers that were persnickety. To me it seems like a lot of the dislikes of some speakers (like Magico) fade when you start using electronics like you would for something like the O 96's. The problem is that they often don't translate over well for bass due to lack of power. I could go on forever... I guess my real point is I don't prescribe to these little theories that haven't shown to be true anymore than to just reconfirm someone likes their stereo that isn't something else. I mean, you ever seen what the Pass phono section looks like? I don't anyone really would claim it sounds bad but simple IT IS NOT. The examples don't end.

I'll get to comment in a bit about the review, Keith.

Yes I did add the point of electronics. You cannot with Magico use easily the electronics you would with the O96. I have add issues with Pass phono regarding transparency, so thanks for confirming it is not simple. I never looked inside.

 

[bonzo75]

You still don't get it. The question is Transparency to WHAT recording?

Simpler speakers may be more transparent on simpler music vs a traditional multi-way speaker, but it's the other way around with more complex music.

No not at all. Thanks for telling me what I don't get. Maybe you need to get good recordings

 

[DaveC]

No not at all. Thanks for telling me what I don't get. Maybe you need to get good recordings

Another issue with this kind of evaluation is it's also hard to discern what's "transparent to the recording" from pleasant colorations and resonances, many of which can make for a sense of increased clarity or resolution, and these are often present in the type of speakers you think are more transparent. This is part of the reason these kinds of speakers don't play complex music as well.

All I'm saying is your conclusions about what's really transparent can't be stated with the kind of certainty you are stating them, and in many ways you are totally wrong.

 

[bonzo75]

Another issue with this kind of evaluation is it's also hard to discern what's "transparent to the recording" from pleasant colorations and resonances, many of which can make for a sense of increased clarity or resolution, and these are often present in the type of speakers you think are more transparent. This is part of the reason these kinds of speakers don't play complex music as well.

All I'm saying is your conclusions about what's really transparent can't be stated with the kind of certainty you are stating them, and in many ways you are totally wrong.

A wilson Magico type of set up (and many other such speakers) create a constant stage and imaging (in that room, not across rooms). Constant might be a more extreme word, but I like to hear the different concert hall ambiences. The constant stage can even be impressive on the first record you play, and then gets boring by the fourth (for me, at least). And no, I am not saying I need to spend loads and loads on Pnoe or Tang's system or so to get transparency. I got this with Devore across 6 amps in two different rooms. Very easy. Just change the record and see the change that happens, each time you feel like a fresh concert. None of that constant stage, image style. It feels so much more real. Yes, there is tone color, which is another aspect. For example, tone of piano/violin might be similar across recordings in some applications. Some like audio note or kondo create a very pleasing tone that strikes us in the first recording, but then is very similar across.

 

[DaveC]

A wilson Magico type of set up (and many other such speakers) create a constant stage and imaging (in that room, not across rooms). Constant might be a more extreme word, but I like to hear the different concert hall ambiences. The constant stage can even be impressive on the first record you play, and then gets boring by the fourth (for me, at least). And no, I am not saying I need to spend loads and loads on Pnoe or Tang's system or so to get transparency. I got this with Devore across 6 amps in two different rooms. Very easy. Just change the record and see the change that happens, each time you feel like a fresh concert. None of that constant stage, image style. It feels so much more real. Yes, there is tone color, which is another aspect. For example, tone of piano/violin might be similar across recordings in some applications. Some like audio note or kondo create a very pleasing tone that strikes us in the first recording, but then is very similar across.

So what you're saying is a cone 'n dome speaker can't create a "you are there" experience? I disagree...

 

[Folsom]

I don’t think Ked is wrong that there is a very strong tendancy for modern type stereos to sound like they have one flavor... but it isn’t a rule.

It seems to often come from tweaking with things like ground boxes, goofy cords, etc.

Still going to reply, Keith, just later when I am home.