KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

morricab

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My 2016 model of the MM monitors appears to have a more inert cabinet than previous MM iterations. The current MM model again has a somewhat stiffer cabinet than my MM speakers. But it's still no match for the Reflector, and probably no match for the Master control MMCs either.



Not that much has changed: the designer of the Reflector, Tash Goka, might disagree with you ;).
Hmmm...massively damped cabinet? Check, Carbon fiber hyperbolic mid/woofer run without crossover, which is a derivative of Audax drivers from a similar design (you know the original designer was an engineer from Audax)? Check. Be tweeter (after I upgraded) crossed over only with a single very high quality cap? Check

Yeah, you are right, they are Massively different...LOL! I think the only thing I see really different is that mine the tweeter was offset to the outside to get the time-alignment and yours is sunk deeper into a waveguide of sorts. Might impact dispersion and such a bit.
 

PeterA

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And oh yeah, KeithR is 100% moving this summer - so no more ocean view :( I am in full agreement that a SOTA speaker needs a bigger room and intend to have one. But state of LA living is rooms just aren't that big - I can't imagine more than 20 x 15 in my next home.

A 20 X 15 room can be quite nice sounding and support a very capable speaker if the room is properly treated and the speakers and listening seat are well positioned. Your high budget should allow for a few superb sounding alternatives for such a room. It doesn't have to be Wilson Alexandria size to sound full range, extremely satisfying and convincing on a variety of musical genres and scales. I wish my room were that big.
 

morricab

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Changes to recordings? What changes? Does it mean changes in different masterings of the same recording? Anyhow, Orangutans impart a strong flavor. Some people like it, some don't. This doesn't mean they make everything sound the same, but it's still confusing to say they are "transparent" in my opinion.
Transparency and coloration may or may not be connected. I have heard strongly colored speakers that nonetheless didn't appear to mask anything in terms of low level details, dynamic shifts etc. Conversely, I have heard seemingly very neutral speakers tonally that just did not reveal much and so the live feeling was totally missing...or they were aggressive sounding and hard but not resolute.
 
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DaveC

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This quality of "sameness" across recordings is certainly evident in some systems. You seem to be attributing it to speakers like Wilson or Magico, or to particular electronics. A member here with much more experience that I told me that this sense of "sameness", particularly in soundstage and imaging, is rather more dependent on the cables or the tweaks in a system. I have been playing around with cables and tweaks a lot lately, and am beginning to understand exactly what he means. All the while, my Magico speakers stayed in place and transparency to the recording has been increasing. It's been a rather ear opening period for me.


Yup, glad to hear that as it's true... especially for interconnect cables. :)

My system is based on achieving a 3-D, immersive soundstage. Through testing I think that it's the largest driver of speaker preference, but it's also an indication that a lot of other things are working properly as well. I think this is also a primary factor differentiating an "ordinary" sounding system with one that people feel are really special.

As far as cables and tweaks, you can lose a lot of fine detail via IC cables, so they are a key component and often more important vs actual components. There are a lot of really good components these days, and cables too, but we know less about cables so there is more variation and little to guide folks to ones that perform properly in the context of a high end system.

Tweaks can act as harmonic "extenders"... If you consider that a mic will only create an electrical signal due to diaphragm movement, and there is a limit to it's sensitivity, so as it's recording at a certain point it will truncate the information. Then more info is lost during mastering and playback, so what we end up with is truncation of the ambient spatial information and fine detail in vocals and string instruments our ears expect to be there. Tweaks such as footers, resonators, etc.. can actually recreate this lower level information via an electromechanical feedback process, this is the process that racks and footers modify. IMO, when the tweaks extend the harmonic information already in the music in such a way that mimics what we hear in real life, then it makes the whole presentation clearer and more immersive.*


EDIT: And more transparent to the music too, this is exactly what I was talking about my previous posts as these tweaks are also distortions and additions to what's in the recording, yet they make it sound like it's clearer and more transparent. Single driver/SET type systems are often more sensitive to this electromechanical feedback, with a glaring example being the vacuum tube, which are all microphonic to some degree. So this is part of the reason some may feel the simple system is more transparent... and they attribute this to simplicity, but it's really NOT that simple, unfortunately. This is evidenced by the fact systems that are very complicated can also perform at high levels.
 
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PeterA

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Possible. What you have done well is also have monitors in a big space. You will get much more coherence and easy speaker disappearance and large stage. I don't know your speaker but works that way with quite a few monitors.

The smaller tannoy with vintage drivers below was far superior to me than the bigger tannoy, with the same 100w amp. At Derainer's place on Sunday.

On orchestral, Chamber, staging, detail, tone. Clean bass and dynamics, gave rise to easier layering (relative to the other speaker)


View attachment 48628

Ked, could speaker placement have had anything to do with your conclusions?
 

bonzo75

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Ked, could speaker placement have had anything to do with your conclusions?

This was my third Canterbury (the big speaker). Regarding the other conclusions, they have been across many rooms, and devore vs another speaker in the same room, and with horns universum I have used a lot of cables... From unknown to albedo to skogrand. Whenever I go there they are experimenting with different cables.. Doesn't reduce transparency to recordings of the speaker. Yes, some cables add a color but I get changes.

Yes bad speaker positioning will affect adversely for sure, but that will not happen across rooms. Electronics play a role because replacing Allnic pre by Soulution pre increased transparency to recordings in an Avalon system. I will write in more detail about this. Koetsu jade with diamond cantilever makes records sound so much the same in that system, while some other carts don't. In Tang's system, I get transparency across tables and carts... There is a character of the table or the cart, but it does not create the sameness I am referring to
 

bazelio

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Transparency and coloration may or may not be connected. I have heard strongly colored speakers that nonetheless didn't appear to mask anything in terms of low level details, dynamic shifts etc. Conversely, I have heard seemingly very neutral speakers tonally that just did not reveal much and so the live feeling was totally missing...or they were aggressive sounding and hard but not resolute.
May not be, but usually they are. Orangutans would certainly tend to mask sibilance in a recording to a certain extent, for example. They'd probably also mask incisiveness and bite for example on close-mic'd acoustic recordings, etc. Just IME.
 

KeithR

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As good as these were (and they were good), the La Bohemes from Odeon are playing on another level of sheer realism. It is not that they are so obviously dynamic or less colored or extended (on either end...in fact they are similar in that regard) but instruments simply sound more real and in real space. That micro/macro relationship is held better intact. Both responded well to SETs and PP Class A triode amps or SET hybrids. But Things sound more real...particularly percussive sounds...even the weight on piano keys striking the strings etc.

I've always thought about trying Ref3as, but SPL limits and bass have been the reason why I haven't (well, and Tash doesn't have a SoCal dealer). I considered the $10k Nefes when looking at Devore actually. Maybe I should consider the Sema Zen though - although Nextel finish on mdf doesn't really meet my criteria
 
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DaveC

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Regarding the other conclusions, they have been across many rooms, and devore vs another speaker in the same room, and with horns universum I have used a lot of cables... From unknown to albedo to skogrand. Whenever I go there they are experimenting with different cables.. Doesn't reduce transparency to recordings of the speaker. Yes, some cables add a color but I get changes.


IMO you need to draw fewer conclusions.

It's more than ok to talk about your experiences and what you like and prefer, but when I read you making these kind of statements sometimes I just SMH... :rolleyes:
 

bonzo75

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May not be, but usually they are. Orangutans would certainly tend to mask sibilance in a recording to a certain extent, for example. They'd probably also mask incisiveness and bite for example on close-mic'd acoustic recordings, etc. Just IME.

Yes, they have less bite so I will probably use a more incisive cart if I had gone that way, like the strad. But these characteristics are not what I am referring to anyway. Some speakers have more, or less bass, more, or less highs, etc. This has nothing to do with sameness and lack of
 

PeterA

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This was my third Canterbury (the big speaker). Regarding the other conclusions, they have been across many rooms, and devore vs another speaker in the same room, and with horns universum I have used a lot of cables... From unknown to albedo to skogrand. Whenever I go there they are experimenting with different cables.. Doesn't reduce transparency to recordings of the speaker. Yes, some cables add a color but I get changes.

Yes bad speaker positioning will affect adversely for sure, but that will not happen across rooms. Electronics play a role because replacing Allnic pre by Soulution pre increased transparency to recordings in an Avalon system. I will write in more detail about this. Koetsu jade with diamond cantilever makes records sound so much the same in that system, while some other carts don't. In Tang's system, I get transparency across tables and carts... There is a character of the table or the cart, but it does not create the sameness I am referring to

Ked, I'm simply asking about the conclusions you made from the one listening session at Derainer's place last Sunday and the photo of the speaker placement. When comparing two different speakers which are next to each other in the same room, I often hesitate to form conclusions knowing that the sound can be affected by the proximity of the other speakers and by the different speaker positions.

I'm just asking you about the speaker placement of those speakers in that room affecting your conclusions or at least contributing to them. You seem to be drawing your conclusions based solely on the different designs of those Tannoy speakers and not considering other factors like speaker placement or something else.
 
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bazelio

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Yes, they have less bite so I will probably use a more incisive cart if I had gone that way, like the strad. But these characteristics are not what I am referring to anyway. Some speakers have more, or less bass, more, or less highs, etc. This has nothing to do with sameness and lack of
It has everything to do with transparency when the speakers mask things that are in the recording. Orangutans do.
 

morricab

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I've always thought about trying Ref3as, but SPL limits and bass have been the reason why I haven't (well, and Tash doesn't have a SoCal dealer). I considered the $10k Nefes when looking at Devore actually. Maybe I should consider the Sema Zen though - although Nextel finish on mdf doesn't really meet my criteria
Worth consdieration if you can audition them. Never heard the biggest models...these all came later after the move of the company from Europe to Canada. Lively speakers...not horn or single driver lively but lively and much better balanced than most single driver speakers. Be aware though the main driver is acting like a single driver as it has no crossover at all. It just has a nice, well behaved rolloff without big breakup peaks. This allows it to be nicely blended with a first order high passed tweeter.
 

bonzo75

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It has everything to do with transparency when the speakers mask things that are in the recording. Orangutans do.

You are talking about unmasking details as opposed to sameness, different things
 

morricab

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You are talking about unmasking details as opposed to sameness, different things
They are related and one, masking details, often leads to the other...
 
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bonzo75

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They are related and one, masking details, often leads to the other...

I am referring to the fact that every speaker has some attribute across... It does now show bass from recordings, rolls off highs, has lean Midbass, etc. This will show you a compromise of the speaker, and you will decide to live with it or not... But it will not necessarily make recordings sound same. You can have a constant bump in the bass yet recordings can have differences
 

Folsom

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But if you put in ten LPs, if they tend to a similar sound, that's the system. If they result in ten different sounds, something is right.

Couldn't agree more with ^ that. However the ten LP's don't vary across the years you might have an issue because modern ones don't sound partiuclarly different from one another since half of them started on protools.

Yeah, you are right, they are Massively different...LOL! I think the only thing I see really different is that mine the tweeter was offset to the outside to get the time-alignment and yours is sunk deeper into a waveguide of sorts. Might impact dispersion and such a bit.

Did you just poo poo a waveguide saying it might hurt dispersion? I think you need to read a lot more, A LOT MORE on what waveguides do. They tend to make dispersion be very even instead of a polar plot that basically makes a pre-defined sitting location with no variance because everywhere else the power response sucks like what can happen with a regular tweeter depending on the crossover and cabinet.
 
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Folsom

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I PM'd Keith with some instructions about how he could reduce the bass the regions where they are too much in his room, without killing the bass, and gaining some articulation. With that he should be able to keep them toe'd out enough to even out the response a bit. That might really balance out the speakers in such a way where he has to reconsider the entire desire to change speakers.

As many have noted, moving to bigger more expensive speakers runs the risk of having room issues all over, since they'll have a tendency to be tuned for larger rooms as well. Some will be able to adjust a bit, others not at all.
 

morricab

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Couldn't agree more with ^ that. However the ten LP's don't vary across the years you might have an issue because modern ones don't sound partiuclarly different from one another since half of them started on protools.



Did you just poo poo a waveguide saying it might hurt dispersion? I think you need to read a lot more, A LOT MORE on what waveguides do. They tend to make dispersion be very even instead of a polar plot that basically makes a pre-defined sitting location with no variance because everywhere else the power response sucks like what can happen with a regular tweeter depending on the crossover and cabinet.
You misinterpret what I meant, sorry if I wasn’t clearer. I meant more that it change he dispersion relative to the older models and would like have narrower dispersion . It could be more even but I have seen very even off-axis measurements from some direct radiating flat to the baffle tweeters. I have seen some waveguides that are not nearly as constant directivity as you would hope. Nothing is for certain because the execution is so variable between brands. I have looked a lot recently at waveguides with CDs and they are all over the place honestly.
 

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