KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Al M.]

Please can you tell me, without tipping, why you think the Gibbons cannot be thought?

Actually his sentence was clear, and you misread it.

 

[timinwi]

Thought I would start a thread about my latest auditions, what my goals are, etc.

Background:

I have owned Wilsons, Dynaudios, Zu, and now Devores. I have owned Gibbon Xs for 3 years now and really enjoy their sound - open, dynamic, with good tone. They are very amplifier-flexible which I enjoy and have driven them with Quads, DarTZeel, and now Audio Research. Generally speaking, speaker/amp matching is critical to me and after owning Zu and trying over 15 amps on them, I am a stickler on properly driving speakers.

The Devore weakness in my room has always been in the bass - and yes, I was used to sealed bass with Zu courtesy of a class D actively driven module with a downward-firing 12" woofer. My room is 14'x15-18' as I have an angled rear wall. I have the Gibbon Xs around 2.5-3' from the front wall as setup by the dealer and after 6 months of positioning I felt they were perfectly setup for my trapezoid-shaped room. Devore uses a pair of long-throw 9" woofers, so bass gets down well into the mid-20s. I feel the Audio Research was a great pairing as it uses a small amount of negative feedback which controls the woofers much better than my former DarTZeel. But it still can be a little prodigious for my tastes - which is also mentioned as a positive in the reviews - I should also say that I want to try them in a larger room as my guess is this will be much ameliorated (and another audiophile with Gibbon Xs apparently has no such issue in his room).

I'm looking at to see what 2-3x the cost of my Devores (<50k) can provide - and am curious if the various high end cabinets are advantageous to my Devore's solid bamboo.

Room:

As mentioned before, I have a trapezoid room currently but am moving in 2019 - my goal is to find at least a 20' x 15' room. So the ideal speaker will need to fit in a normal sized room. This will likely be an LA rental, but we may purchase an 1800 square foot rancher house in the next downturn and my guess is the room will be similar in size.

Speaker criteria:

I don't like bright sound or anything with "hifi fireworks" that unnaturally presents detail as a red herring. Metal tweeters and ceramic drivers have usually bothered me in prior speaker hunts. I require excellent dynamics and hence have always had an interest in horns - but concerned their negatives may outweigh this area. I don't crave "ultimate transparency" or detail. Basically I'm looking for a big soundstage with excellent dynamics and good tone. I also need adequate bass as I listen to electronica/trip hop/downtempo for a third of my listening. The other two thirds of my listening includes rock/americana and classical - I don't really listen to jazz at all. Tone, immediacy, and presence are somewhat related and one thing Devore does really well. One last thing, as a former Zu owner - coherency is more apparent to me than others. It bothers me when I can hear different instruments out of different drivers or can point to the bass, etc.

Audition list:

Rockport Avior 2
Gamut RS7i
Wilson Audio Sasha DAW
YG Acoustics Hailey 2
Cessaro Wagner

I've narrowed my interest to the list above - I did consider Avantgardes, Voxativ, and some others but ultimately am satisfied with this audition list. Panels don't work for my listening preferences.

to be continued later with my Rockport audition thoughts...

I am a big fan of Focal BE1038 + rel S/35 sho subwoofer for the room size that you quoted. Each BE1038 weighs 112lbs. You can hook them up both for stereo listening and home theater listening Your equipment should work very well. BE1038 have beryllium tweeter. the material constructed by the Focal engineers allows very fast response. You can hear a coin or pin drop in between a scene. The woofers are made in a way that allow quick response. Therefore dissipation energy and absorption energy back to your amplifier causes less chance for control, especially if you have a tube amplifier.

 

[Folsom]

Perhaps fighting off multiple wildcats after multiple bottles of whiskey and typing furiously all the time without any regard to auto type or any interventions or conventions of Siri or Cordana et al. and all the while swiping away at all manner of imagined banshee and banging away feverishly at the keyboard... all too valiant but also in vane. Actually it’s infectious.

I will confess, I do have a fantasy when I'm hiking, of being attacked by a cougar and killing it with sticks & stones readily available - so that I can walk out with it on my shoulders (and presumably have pictures uploaded to the net within a second of making it to other humans).

 

[DaveC]

I will confess, I do have a fantasy when I'm hiking, of being attacked by a cougar and killing it with sticks & stones readily available - so that I can walk out with it on my shoulders (and presumably have pictures uploaded to the net within a second of making it to other humans).

https://www.backpacker.com/news-and-events/trail-runner-kills-mountain-lion

I read in another article it was only 50 lbs, probably a desperate juvenile, but still...

 

[bazelio]

Despite @Folsom being attacked by a pack of wild silverbacks while posting left handed on WBF, I've enjoyed all the Rockport write-ups. I do think that carbon fibre drivers can tend to veil the sound to a degree that masks the expression of micro dynamics making their reproduction less faithful than alternate driver types and ultimately less favorable per my preferences. So, the description from @brencho hits home for me. I've had the same issue on many occasions with Magico, despite various high power amps being employed. Horses for courses.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I will confess, I do have a fantasy when I'm hiking, of being attacked by a cougar and killing it with sticks & stones readily available - so that I can walk out with it on my shoulders (and presumably have pictures uploaded to the net within a second of making it to other humans).

These are indeed ancient primal desires... the more contemporary fantasy of being attacked by a cougar involves a young guy walking into a bar filled with older women, and then taking a selfie afterwards and tweeting post victory.

 

[NorthStar]

This' a cougar thread, cool.

 

[Al M.]

Despite @Folsom being attacked by a pack of wild silverbacks while posting left handed on WBF, I've enjoyed all the Rockport write-ups. I do think that carbon fibre drivers can tend to veil the sound to a degree that masks the expression of micro dynamics making their reproduction less faithful than alternate driver types and ultimately less favorable per my preferences. So, the description from @brencho hits home for me. I've had the same issue on many occasions with Magico, despite various high power amps being employed. Horses for courses.

Well, you're wrong. My Reference 3A monitors employ a carbon fibre mid-woofer, and micro dynamics, overall drama and liveliness are excellent. Ref 3A has as an explicit goal of maximum liveliness in their designs, and they would never employ such drivers if they stood in the way of this goal.

Also, the speakers are pathetically easy to drive.

 

[bazelio]

Well, you're wrong. My Reference 3A monitors employ a carbon fibre mid-woofer, and micro dynamics, overall drama and liveliness are excellent. Ref 3A has as an explicit goal of maximum liveliness in their designs, and they would never employ such drivers if they stood in the way of this goal.

Also, the speakers are pathetically easy to drive.

Or Ref 3A isn't the gospel. Because they did choose drivers which are counter to that goal. If "maximum liveliness" were the goal, then they'd have used full range whizzer cones. It's all relative and I'm sure they have preferences aside from maximum liveliness and have weighed the tradeoffs. But whatever.

Now, I've only heard the carbon fibers (that I can think of from the top of my head) on Magicos. The graphene drivers were much better. Either way, the Rockport impressions in this area make me think that zeroing in on the drivers is warranted. I'll be curious to hear other implementations and look for departures from this observation.

 

[Al M.]

Or Ref 3A isn't the gospel. Because they did choose drivers which are counter to that goal. If "maximum liveliness" were the goal, then they'd have used full range whizzer cones. It's all relative and I'm sure they have preferences aside from maximum liveliness and have weighed the tradeoffs. But whatever.

Yeah, whatever indeed. A typical audiophile pronouncement from preconveived dogma while you have no clue how those speakers sound. If you would come over to listen to my system, you would fall off your chair from shock. All your preconceived notions would be destroyed in an instant.

 

[bazelio]

How far from Cambridge are you, @Al M. ? I'd like to take you up on that. Sounds fun!

 

[Al M.]

How far from Cambridge are you, @Al M. ? I'd like to take you up on that. Sounds fun!

Perfect, Cambridge MA? About 50 min drive. Will be fun indeed! Let's PM.

 

[KeithR]

Thanks to the measurements posted by JA, @Folsom recommendations, and my Rockport demo I revisited toe-in this morning. I had toed further inward last summer as that typically maximizes imaging precision, but today I realized that came at the expense of some smoothness (something I had recently attributed to new tubes, but turns out that wasn't the case). I used my trusty Audiotools FFT app to try 3 scenarios including 0, 1/2, and almost full toe-in....1/2 toe-in pegged the evenest response and later confirmed this evening in an extended listening session. More relaxing, even sound was the result and some sharpness in the upper mid/lower treble was gone. It wasn't "a new speaker" at all - just a 5% improvement or so. My room has an angled sliding glass door along one side that I believe prevents 0 degree toe-in that is typical with most Devores.

I also confirmed JAs thoughts that they really aren't terribly sensitive to toe-in - the mids and downward didn't change much in the 3 positions and the center image wasn't particularly less diffuse as some speakers (including my Zus).

 

[Al M.]

Thanks to the measurements posted by JA, @Folsom recommendations, and my Rockport demo I revisited toe-in this morning. I had toed further inward last summer as that typically maximizes imaging precision, but today I realized that came at the expense of some smoothness (something I had recently attributed to new tubes, but turns out that wasn't the case). I used my trusty Audiotools FFT app to try 3 scenarios including 0, 1/2, and almost full toe-in....1/2 toe-in pegged the evenest response and later confirmed this evening in an extended listening session. More relaxing, even sound was the result and some sharpness in the upper mid/lower treble was gone. It wasn't "a new speaker" at all - just a 5% improvement or so. My room has an angled sliding glass door along one side that I believe prevents 0 degree toe-in that is typical with most Devores.

I also confirmed JAs thoughts that they really aren't terribly sensitive to toe-in - the mids and downward didn't change much in the 3 positions and the center image wasn't particularly less diffuse as some speakers (including my Zus).

Congratulations, Keith! Playing with system set-up is often rewarding and doesn't cost a dime.

 

[KeithR]

But Ron, not all of us have the wherewithall to go this far.

I've experienced Blue58's Duos over a 4 year system evolution, and they are truly satisfying and surprising. And this is a decade plus old spec. The new XDs according to Marslo really push things on.

Marc- I answered the AG question a few pages ago as I was offered a deal on 1-year old Duo Xds. Cessaro will be my horn audition coming up - specifically the Wagner 2 and Listz.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh, I think you'll like the Liszts.

 

[PeterA]

Thanks to the measurements posted by JA, @Folsom recommendations, and my Rockport demo I revisited toe-in this morning. I had toed further inward last summer as that typically maximizes imaging precision, but today I realized that came at the expense of some smoothness (something I had recently attributed to new tubes, but turns out that wasn't the case). I used my trusty Audiotools FFT app to try 3 scenarios including 0, 1/2, and almost full toe-in....1/2 toe-in pegged the evenest response and later confirmed this evening in an extended listening session. More relaxing, even sound was the result and some sharpness in the upper mid/lower treble was gone. It wasn't "a new speaker" at all - just a 5% improvement or so. My room has an angled sliding glass door along one side that I believe prevents 0 degree toe-in that is typical with most Devores.

I also confirmed JAs thoughts that they really aren't terribly sensitive to toe-in - the mids and downward didn't change much in the 3 positions and the center image wasn't particularly less diffuse as some speakers (including my Zus).

That's quite interesting. Those seem like three very large adjustments. My speakers seem to be much more sensitive. I have recently been experimenting with toe-in of +/- 1/2" at the listening seat which corresponds to something like a 1/32" or 1/16" at the speakers. Such slight changes in toe-in are quite audible in my speaker/room context.

Keith, have you tried really small adjustments now that you have settled on the 1/2 toe-in range?

 

[PeterA]

... I do think that carbon fibre drivers can tend to veil the sound to a degree that masks the expression of micro dynamics making their reproduction less faithful than alternate driver types and ultimately less favorable per my preferences. So, the description from @brencho hits home for me. I've had the same issue on many occasions with Magico, despite various high power amps being employed. Horses for courses.

Bazelio, do you think these carbon fiber drivers have difficulty getting "tone" correct because of the masking of micro dynamics? What Magico speakers have you heard that exhibit this issue? You later mentioned that the nanotech or graphene drivers are much better. What Magico speakers had those? I'm pretty familiar with the older wood Magicos, the Q series and the new M series, but know little about the S series.

I think you will enjoy meeting Al M. and should find his system quite interesting. It is incredibly lively and his Ref 3a speakers disappear leaving a very large and defined soundstage. It is a very large sound given the size of his two way stand mounted speakers. Have a good visit. If you have extra time, you are welcome to visit me too. I live about ten minutes away from Al.

 

[KeithR]

That's quite interesting. Those seem like three very large adjustments. My speakers seem to be much more sensitive. I have recently been experimenting with toe-in of +/- 1/2" at the listening seat which corresponds to something like a 1/32" or 1/16" at the speakers. Such slight changes in toe-in are quite audible in my speaker/room context.

Keith, have you tried really small adjustments now that you have settled on the 1/2 toe-in range?

I might try one more when Alex visits this weekend - but honestly, my speaker just isn't that responsive to toe-in.

Fwiw, i twisted the speaker around 2" at the speaker from no toe-in to almost full, direct sound (well, aimed behind the head). But I'm sitting over 11' away so if you're closer that will make the adjustments much smaller.

 

[morricab]

Or Ref 3A isn't the gospel. Because they did choose drivers which are counter to that goal. If "maximum liveliness" were the goal, then they'd have used full range whizzer cones. It's all relative and I'm sure they have preferences aside from maximum liveliness and have weighed the tradeoffs. But whatever.

Now, I've only heard the carbon fibers (that I can think of from the top of my head) on Magicos. The graphene drivers were much better. Either way, the Rockport impressions in this area make me think that zeroing in on the drivers is warranted. I'll be curious to hear other implementations and look for departures from this observation.

Well, whizzers generally are pretty sucky tweeters...and I even have a good sounding pair of single driver speakers, which I am now looking to augment with a good tweeter. They get up there but it isn't nearly as clean and realistic as a good compression driver or ribbon tweeter.

Having owned three different models of Ref3A in the past, I can say that they are quite lively for a more or less conventional technology speaker. Part of that is the highish sensitivity and part is that there is very little crossover (none on the midbass...it has a very smooth rolloff). This also means they are pretty much time coherent as well. I think they can sound more realistic than the Magicos I have heard, for example...

If my memory serves they were the first brand to embrace carbon fiber way back in the early 90s.