KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[asiufy]

I don't think phase coherency is OT - I think if you look at my preferred speakers, generally I like lower order crossovers. To me they are much more coherent, despite the Harman testing stuff that says only 4th order is good due to flatter FR, smoother off-axis etc.

But I think this comes from being a Zu owner for years - as Morricab says, once you get used to it you become very cognizant of the relative cacophony involved. This usually lends itself to a mechanical feel where I can hear instruments out of different drivers. I feel YG has more secret sauce than others in this region, but some of that also maybe that Yoav crosses over the mid really really low (65hz). Crossovers in the middle of the mid-range aren't ideal to me.

Here's YG's "secret sauce" :

https://www.yg-acoustics.com/tech/dualcoherent

 

[Folsom]

It's actually possible for Magico to use 1st order crossover on the tweeter, but also be elliptical. I don't know if they do, but it is possible.

 

[DaveC]

Phase matters at certain frequencies...This is the one advantage of a wideband or single driver, it generally will cover the entire sensitive area.

At lower frequencies we aren't as sensitive and in fact the sound doesn't even propigate in the room in the same way below the transition frequency, which depends on the room's dimensions. At high frequencies a coax type driver is the only one that has any chance of staying phase coherent if you move your head an inch. Can anyone hear this? I doubt it, as long as the phase is matched at the xo point...

As far as whizzers, some say they are able to get flat output to 20 kHz but I have my doubts and have never seen an accurate single driver over 15 kHz.

 

[DaveC]

It's actually possible for Magico to use 1st order crossover on the tweeter, but also be elliptical. I don't know if they do, but it is possible.

How? AFAIK you need an inductor in parallel to get the elliptic response?

 

[morricab]

Maybe I just wasn't lucky, but the last 2 years, all I got out of that room was "antiquated and colored"...

Best year (from my POV) was I think 2016. They were 1930s "small" theater speakers and there were two of them. Sounded absolutely beautiful such that my wife literally got tears running down her cheeks listening to a singer performing Russian opera (ok my wife IS Russian... but still)! The worst was the next year when they had 1920s straight horns...some of the very first used for commercial broadcast.

 

[bonzo75]

Best year (from my POV) was I think 2016. They were 1930s "small" theater speakers and there were two of them. Sounded absolutely beautiful such that my wife literally got tears running down her cheeks listening to a singer performing Russian opera (ok my wife IS Russian... but still)! The worst was the next year when they had 1920s straight horns...some of the very first used for commercial broadcast.

I think that was 2016, the worst. The 2017 was the mirrophonic which were the best along with 2014 where they had the 12a and 13a paired up for each channel

 

[bonzo75]

2017 http://zero-distortion.org/munich-high-end-2017/

 

[morricab]

I don't think phase coherency is OT - I think if you look at my preferred speakers, generally I like lower order crossovers. To me they are much more coherent, despite the Harman testing stuff that says only 4th order is good due to flatter FR, smoother off-axis etc.

But I think this comes from being a Zu owner for years - as Morricab says, once you get used to it you become very cognizant of the relative cacophony involved. This usually lends itself to a mechanical feel where I can hear instruments out of different drivers. I feel YG has more secret sauce than others in this region, but some of that also maybe that Yoav crosses over the mid really really low (65hz). Crossovers in the middle of the mid-range aren't ideal to me.

I think it might also have a lot to do with all the drivers being from the same material. I had the big multi-way Infinity IRS Betas, which will not as beautifully coherent as my big Acoustats, were pretty darn good even pretty close up. I think it was because everything down to around 100Hz was planar magentic with the same design, just scaled for frequency response.

What I like about my current speakers, Odeon La Boheme and Decware HDT, is that they are relatively simple (two-way and one-way) and coherent. That is also what I liked about the Ref 3As I had before and my third pair of speakers the Odeon Rigoletto. The Dynamikks gain a lot of coherence by having a coaxial mid/tweeter.

 

[morricab]

2017 http://zero-distortion.org/munich-high-end-2017/

Ok, got my dates wrong.

 

[morricab]

Here's YG's "secret sauce" :

https://www.yg-acoustics.com/tech/dualcoherent

Are there measurements to prove the claim?

 

[Folsom]

How? AFAIK you need an inductor in parallel to get the elliptic response?

To the tweeter 1 single series capacitor. And then you have a set of notch filters that are not in series. The tweeter sees first order response, but other frequencies it would try to play will be attenuated by the notch filters. The notch filters won't change the transient response or phase of the tweeter. The can induce some distortion from interacting with the amp.

But either way they sound totally different than someone without anything but a cap, so I don't think Keith is about to jump into a pair of Magicos.

 

[morricab]

I think that was 2016, the worst. The 2017 was the mirrophonic which were the best along with 2014 where they had the 12a and 13a paired up for each channel

Yes, I meant 2015 was great, 2016 was the old 1920s horns that sucked adn 2017 was really good. Before that my memory gets fuzzy.

 

[asiufy]

Are there measurements to prove the claim?

Yoav has all the measurements you can think of, and some. They've had the speakers measured at that Canadian institute, forgot the name now... You're welcome to ask YG.

 

[asiufy]

Yes, I meant 2015 was great, 2016 was the old 1920s horns that sucked adn 2017 was really good. Before that my memory gets fuzzy.

Been there 2017 and 2018. Both years I was left wondering what all the fuss was about. Truly puzzling, as it was indeed "antiquated and colored", horrible stuff.

 

[morricab]

Been there 2017 and 2018. Both years I was left wondering what all the fuss was about. Truly puzzling, as it was indeed "antiquated and colored", horrible stuff.

2018 was not good. Not sure what was going on last year. I would disagree with you about 2017 but really 2015 was amazing. Although, TBH, I don't get the YG sound either...not antiquted but not real sounding either.

 

[asiufy]

Yeah because I had read all these reports, I kept coming back to that room, to see what it was all about. I don't recall which year, but at some point, they put a Led Zeppelin track, and it was unlistenable, I walked out immediately.

OTOH, the Tune Audio room in that same show was amazing, and THEY also did a Led Zeppelin track, which was fantastic! Colored, yeah, but definitely not "AM radio" like that vintage stuff.

 

[bazelio]

Nice marketing by YG. IMO time domain is what matters when we talk about phase. The result of phase incoherence will show up in the frequency domain as aberrations. Dual coherent is a 'no duh'. Not a knock on YG though, because I think they're awesome.

Being phase incoherent does not imply a fixed offset between wave A and wave B; it means there is a completely non-harmonic relationship between A and B. So the sonic results will always be unpredictable. We might hear certain issues with some content, and different issues with other content. Coherent speakers will present the content of the source more realistically and more accurately.

I'll pass on describing exactly what I heard. Mainly for the reasons above - it will vary. Also because of the sensitivity here, and no desire to argue about it.

 

[morricab]

Nice marketing by YG. IMO time domain is what matters when we talk about phase. The result of phase incoherence will show up in the frequency domain as aberrations. Dual coherent is a 'no duh'. Not a knock on YG though, because I think they're awesome.

Being out of phase does not imply a fixed offset between wave A and wave B; it means there is a completely non-harmonic relationship between A and B. So the sonic results will always be unpredictable. We might hear certain issues with some content, and different issues with other content. Coherent speakers will present the content of the source more realistically and more accurately.

I'll pass on describing exactly what I heard. Mainly for the reasons above - it will vary. Also because of the sensitivity here, and no desire to argue about it.

Stereophile measurements of the Carmel 2 show clearly that the speaker is not time coherent...look at the step response.

 

[asiufy]

YG and marketing do not go in the same sentence. I can assure you people buy YGs not for their marketing prowess.

 

[bazelio]

Stereophile measurements of the Carmel 2 show clearly that the speaker is not time coherent...look at the step response.

Carmel 2 must not be in the 'dual coherent' class of YG then. Haha.