KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I had the big multi-way Infinity IRS Betas . . .

Hello Brad,

I did not know you had infinity Betas! What did you used to drive those speakers?

 

[asiufy]

Carmel 2 must not be in the 'dual coherent' class of YG then. Haha.

Sure, according to morricab and you then, they're not. According to Yoav Geva, they are. I know who I trust more, as far as engineering knowledge.

 

[morricab]

Sure, according to morricab and you then, they're not. According to Yoav Geva, they are. I know who I trust more, as far as engineering knowledge.

Not according to me... according to JA from stereophile, an independent measurement...I never take claims from manufacturers at face value ...nor should you.

 

[asiufy]

Not according to me... according to JA from stereophile, an independent measurement...I never take claims from manufacturers at face value ...nor should you.

Nowhere does JA make the claim that YOU did.
Here's his conclusion:

"Overall, the YGA Carmel 2's measured performance indicates impressive engineering, both in the overall system design and in the proprietary drive-units. That quasi-anechoic response is one of the flattest I have ever measured, rivaled only by YGA's Sonja 1.3 and KEF's Blade Two. But choosing the optimal low-frequency alignment for a relatively small two-way design is always tricky. The Carmel 2 maximizes low-frequency transparency and articulation at the expense of body to its sound.—John Atkinson"

 

[morricab]

Hello Brad,

I did not know you had infinity Betas! What did you used to drive those speakers?

Indeed I did. I had aGolden Tube Audio 100 watt PP EL34 based amp in the panels and Moon W5 on the bass.

 

[morricab]

Nowhere does JA make the claim that YOU did.
Here's his conclusion:

"Overall, the YGA Carmel 2's measured performance indicates impressive engineering, both in the overall system design and in the proprietary drive-units. That quasi-anechoic response is one of the flattest I have ever measured, rivaled only by YGA's Sonja 1.3 and KEF's Blade Two. But choosing the optimal low-frequency alignment for a relatively small two-way design is always tricky. The Carmel 2 maximizes low-frequency transparency and articulation at the expense of body to its sound.—John Atkinson"

Did you look at the step response? It cannot be time coherent with that step response. That test tells all about time coherence. It should look like a right triangle. Go look at Thiel or Vandersteen if you want to see time coherent...

It is quite a flat response though no doubt...at least that part of the claim is true.

 

[morricab]

Nowhere does JA make the claim that YOU did.
Here's his conclusion:

"Overall, the YGA Carmel 2's measured performance indicates impressive engineering, both in the overall system design and in the proprietary drive-units. That quasi-anechoic response is one of the flattest I have ever measured, rivaled only by YGA's Sonja 1.3 and KEF's Blade Two. But choosing the optimal low-frequency alignment for a relatively small two-way design is always tricky. The Carmel 2 maximizes low-frequency transparency and articulation at the expense of body to its sound.—John Atkinson"

Further evidence: Look at the plot of impedance and phase. Right around the crossover there is a phase shift from nearly +45 degrees to about -45 degrees. Then look at the individual driver plots. The crossover point is -6db and the slope is much steeper than you would get for a 1st order xover. All of this indicates a non-first order crossover...something that is necessary for time coherence.

 

[KeithR]

Guys, you are arguing past each other. I've asked Yoav in person about this - phase is maintained only through the crossover region. His "dualcoherent" secret sauce is related to this and never claims to be a fully time and phase coherent loudspeaker from 20hz-20khz.

Speaking of, I don't like Thiels (bright) or Vandys (sleepy) so its not critical to my decision point. My Devores aren't this way either of course as we discussed above.

 

[Folsom]

Guys, you are arguing past each other. I've asked Yoav in person about this - phase is maintained only through the crossover region. His "dualcoherent" secret sauce is related to this and never claims to be a fully time and phase coherent loudspeaker from 20hz-20khz.

Speaking of, I don't like Thiels (bright) or Vandys (sleepy) so its not critical to my decision point. My Devores aren't this way either of course as we discussed above.

The crossover region is where it matters anyway. The only thing truly phase, transient, and time coherent was the insturment/voice itself.

 

[DaveC]

The crossover region is where it matters anyway. The only thing truly phase, transient, and time coherent was the insturment/voice itself.

In the xo region and within a certain frequency range... I'd also agree there is no speaker that's going to get it all perfect but imo it doesn't really matter.

 

[bazelio]

Crossover is the main variable. Impulse response of the drivers is also a factor in the relative wave timing as well, though.

 

[SETDrugs]

Guys, you are arguing past each other. I've asked Yoav in person about this - phase is maintained only through the crossover region. His "dualcoherent" secret sauce is related to this and never claims to be a fully time and phase coherent loudspeaker from 20hz-20khz.

Speaking of, I don't like Thiels (bright) or Vandys (sleepy) so its not critical to my decision point. My Devores aren't this way either of course as we discussed above.

Hi Keith,
Sorry, if this was already discussed earlier but I believe you owned Zu Definition mk4 for good period of time? I'm curious what happened because if properly matched with the right system that is a great speaker that has very few weaknesses from what I've read online. For me I'm not an active bass guy as I own and prefer the signature of Soul Supreme but as Marc's testimonials have shown and others online who have own Def 4 have mostly raved about them.

Just very curious what went wrong with Zu or did you just got bored and wanted change of speaker due to big changes with main system?

 

[KeithR]

I simply preferred the Devore Gibbon X to my Definition IV, and traded them in for a pair. I like the more modern sound, although will always enjoy Zu and Sean Casey is a personal friend. In fact, 213Cobra's long awaited Druid VI review is coming out soon and I can't wait to hear them again in an optimized system (he's tried 8 amps now).

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, Phil informs me he has a ton of info and opinions to convey.

He promises to post here as well as AGon.

 

[SETDrugs]

I simply preferred the Devore Gibbon X to my Definition IV, and traded them in for a pair. I like the more modern sound, although will always enjoy Zu and Sean Casey is a personal friend. In fact, 213Cobra's long awaited Druid VI review is coming out soon and I can't wait to hear them again in an optimized system (he's tried 8 amps now).

Keith,

Thanks for the update. I think 'modern' sound is kind of subjective here. Yes, I fully agree that there are a lot of speakers with supertweeters that go much higher then the current Zu offerings but how much is too much and can we even hear this far up ?

Some very respectable open baffle speakers such as the PureAudioProject uses full range single drivers like Tang Band or Lowther that tries to do everything. I think Sean's approach is best balance or tradeoffs in terms of tonal balance and detail by employing a great wide ( or full range according to Zu) range driver that goes up to 10-12khz region then bring in superb Radian 850 for the rest. Of course, being simple first order this Radian is contributing a great deal to the midrange as well, hence why I like this approach so much. Those pure full range single drivers like Tang Band and Lowthers relies on one driver for everything here and the tradeoffs is more compromised for me.

Regarding Devore, I auditioned the O/96 as I heard great things about it and was not impressed especially at that price. The tonal balance of Supreme is much better to my ears and the Radian is just sublime.

Just in terms of treble /tweeter performance, I've owned in the past or have listened to speakers with very detailed treble and high quality tweeters and for me the Radian 850 is a perfect choice for Zu and what Sean is trying to achieve with his sound signature. I've tested the Soul Supreme with so many diffferent musical genres and I've never felt the treble lacking in any way, at least for me. I believe the Radian 850 is one of the most beautiful tweeter/midrange drivers in the world when properly matched to right equipment. This was evident before and even more solidified now with all Thomas Mayer in my amplification chain.

With the mods and tweaks that Sean did to the full range driver and Radian 850, I believe the new Druid MK6 would be an excellent choice for those that feel the current Soul Supreme or Druid mk5 or Def 4 is a bit lacking in the treble. I for one am not in this camp at all but I will consider jumping to the Soul Supreme MK2 with these new tweaks if or when Sean ever comes out with one.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi, what amp was your O96 demoed with, and were they far away from the wall

 

[SETDrugs]

Bonzo75,

Line Magnetic dealer and yes the speakers were pretty far out into the room. It was an audition by appointment so everything was setup to fully optimize the speaker and amps. I heard the LM 211 and 300B offerings. I can see why some really like the Devore O/96 as it has some good attributes especially when paired with a great SET chain but I just think dollar for dollar, the Soul Supreme is much better speaker. The tonal balance especially the critical midrange and tweeter is far to my liking on the Soul Supreme. Just my humble opinion of course.

 

[KeithR]

Keith,

Thanks for the update. I think 'modern' sound is kind of subjective here. Yes, I fully agree that there are a lot of speakers with supertweeters that go much higher then the current Zu offerings but how much is too much and can we even hear this far up ?

Regarding Devore, I auditioned the O/96 as I heard great things about it and was not impressed especially at that price. The tonal balance of Supreme is much better to my ears and the Radian is just sublime.

That's fine, I'm glad you are happy with Zu. I prefer the Gibbons to the Os and the tonality, refinement, and soundstage of the Gibbon Xs to my prior speakers. I enjoyed the Definition dynamics and sealed bass more, but you have to make your choices (and my speakers are still quite dynamic as my speaker writeups in this thread show). Perhaps the rumored Definition V will change all of that - i think both John Devore and Sean Casey are tremendous designers who go against the grain. They also are very accessible.

 

[SETDrugs]

Keith,

I'm happy that you found something that you like. I truly believe believe there is no such thing as perfect speaker; one has to just find something that sacrifices the least on qualities that they cherish the most. For me right now , no question its the Zu experience and Soul Supreme in particular. For others, I'm sure it could be open baffles or horns or field coil drivers, etc. Yes, Sean Casey is an awesome guy and his amazing customer service is one of main reasons I'm so happy with Zu and will be sticking around for awhile.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Sean Casey is an awesome guy and his amazing customer service is one of main reasons I'm so happy with Zu . . .

From even my one brief in-person encounter with Sean it is clear to me that he is not a “what does the warranty say” kind of guy. He is without doubt a “what can I do to make you completely happy” kind of guy.