KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

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Sure techniques of the engineer. But if you put in ten LPs, if they tend to a similar sound, that's the system. If they result in ten different sounds, something is right. The same engineer is also not creating the same sound. He is trying his best to give you a realistic representation, and between the recording, mastering, cutting, the good ones are managing to do it well. Which is why some people collect by engineers. Either way, it results in more enjoyable listening, and once you hear it, difficult to go back. I have zero intention of analysing their techniques, just that for me if I let the recording show, they have put all the realism cues on it. Great natural stage, tone, ambience, etc.

You can suppress all room information listening in an anechoic chamber maximizing differences in sound , or simply just kill all the primary reflections. Does it make a system more enjoyable or realsitic? Not in my opinion. Professionals do it, also listening at high level, to maximize their analytical capabilities during mixing and mastering. Not my cup of tea. Surely systems having coloration that homogenizes recordings are not desirable.

Anyway, stereo reproduction is managing opposing compromises to fool and entertain us according to our preferences. But I still do not feel that maximizing the differences between recordings is the way to go - although the DCS Vivaldi or the Wilson's are excellent is this field. :)
 
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bonzo75

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You can suppress all room information listening in an anechoic chamber maximizing differences in sound , or simply just kill all the primary reflections. Does it make a system more enjoyable or realsitic? Not in my opinion. Professionals do it, also listening at high level, to maximize their analytical capabilities during mixing and mastering. Not my cup of tea. Surely systems having coloration that homogenizes recordings are not desirable.

Anyway, stereo reproduction is managing opposing compromises to fool and entertain us according to our preferences. But I still do not feel that maximizing the differences between recordings is the way to go - although the DCS Vivaldi or the Wilson's are excellent is this field. :)

This is nothing with what I intended to convey inn my posts
 

Al M.

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Yes, this is why i've heard the speakers are SPL limited.

Depends on what you want. My Ref 3A monitors can play quite cleanly to 95 dBa (on some material beyond that) at almost 9 feet ear to tweeter. The Ref 3A Sema Zen with its two mid-woofers per channel should have no problem playing nicely up to 100 dBa (ca. 105 dB). With sustained levels around that point you are firmly in ear-damaging territory.
 
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bonzo75

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microstrip

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Did someone say that was their goal? I only think that it needs to be readily obvious, not emphasized.


OK, just replace "maximizing the differences between recordings is the way to go" with "looking at the differences between recordings is the way to go ".
 

Ron Resnick

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Btw, this transparency is not same as Martin Logan type transparency

MartinLogan electrostatic panel type transparency is what I mean when I use the word “transparency.”
 

Ron Resnick

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I had a very nice time this evening listening to a wide variety of music at Keith’s place! I continue to believe that that MSB is definitely doing something right on digital.

And those Devores continue to sound natural and non-fatiguing to me!
 

spiritofmusic

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"MSB is definitely doing something right on digital"
Ron, you really crack me up sometimes LOL

That's like saying
"Frank Sinatra, the boy really can sing".
 

morricab

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Well, after seeing Stereophile’s measurements for this speaker it doesn’t surprise me the desire to move on. It is going to a definite character from a curve like this that in the short term might give both nice space and not congested sound . But it will be somewhat lean and likely make a sameness to the soundstage (thanks to the dip in lower mids and dip in presence region).. O96 looks better oversll this way.

I am not a measurement freak an like some speakers very much that don’t measure very flat but broad depressions such as these will be audible and impact tonal balance, which can be wearing over time.
 

KeithR

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Well, after seeing Stereophile’s measurements for this speaker it doesn’t surprise me the desire to move on. It is going to a definite character from a curve like this that in the short term might give both nice space and not congested sound . But it will be somewhat lean and likely make a sameness to the soundstage (thanks to the dip in lower mids and dip in presence region).. O96 looks better oversll this way.

I am not a measurement freak an like some speakers very much that don’t measure very flat but broad depressions such as these will be audible and impact tonal balance, which can be wearing over time.

It wouldn't pass the Harman test ;) Then again, I've never heard a Revel sound convincing.

Speaker doesn't sound lean to me on tubes...which in my experience the speaker sounds best with and may be related (had a Dartzeel first). I was disappointed the reviewer didn't try a full tube amp. The dip in the presence region is balanced by the off axis peak, so its really the second order crossover from mid to bass that's the interesting design choice (and read JD's manufacturer comment for proof).

I've heard the O96 several times at my dealer. The X is far more neutral to me. But horses for courses.
 

asiufy

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"Neutral", "natural", "transparent", these are adjectives that means different things to different people, so it's sort of pointless to keep using them in a forum where most don't know what the other posters' parameters for such adjectives are...

That said, to my ears, and being already familiar with the Orangutang series, the X was clearly a deviation from the Devore sound I knew. I clearly thought the X was cleaner, clearer, more resolute, without giving much of the richness that people like so much on the Orangutang series. The fact that it also obviously favors tube amps (like the O/xx) tells you they all came from the same designer, but hearing the X, you clearly see a conscious effort was made to bump the transparency and neutrality up a notch, like, for instance, in the cabinet work.

Again, huge upgrade for Keith going from his previous speakers to the Gibbon X.

cheers,
Alex
 
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Folsom

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Well, after seeing Stereophile’s measurements for this speaker it doesn’t surprise me the desire to move on. It is going to a definite character from a curve like this that in the short term might give both nice space and not congested sound . But it will be somewhat lean and likely make a sameness to the soundstage (thanks to the dip in lower mids and dip in presence region).. O96 looks better oversll this way.

I am not a measurement freak an like some speakers very much that don’t measure very flat but broad depressions such as these will be audible and impact tonal balance, which can be wearing over time.

If you have then toed out the response will be pretty even. Keith’s bass is a bit much for the room size in that highest hump, but the higher midrange will remain slightly up.
 

Ron Resnick

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My taste has drifted gradually over the years from “old conrad-johnson/Benz Micro Ruby” warm to “slightly warm of neutral” warm.

I do not hear Keith’s Devores as dead neutral or neutral/lean in the (to me) original Magico line of speakers sense. I hear them as “very slightly warm of neutral” warm.
 
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D2Girls

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Hi Keith, my room is almost the same size, just a foot less long. I am following this thread closely. Currently I only have the Duo XD on my shortlist as it seems to be just right in cost and I have a very high preference for horns. I want to consider the sasha DAW but I was worried it would need more space than 14 feet width which is what I have to work with.
 

asiufy

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You should not worry about the Sasha in a 14 feet wide room. They'll likely cramp the space a lot less than Duo XDs. Now, if you prefer horns, there's nothing much to do, other than consider Uno XDs perhaps...
 
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bazelio

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Hi Keith, my room is almost the same size, just a foot less long. I am following this thread closely. Currently I only have the Duo XD on my shortlist as it seems to be just right in cost and I have a very high preference for horns. I want to consider the sasha DAW but I was worried it would need more space than 14 feet width which is what I have to work with.
Iris, with your preference for horns, the Wilsons are going to be a big departure.

@KeithR what is your impression of the $100k (*gasp*) Altair II after yesterday's listening session?
 
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KeithR

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Had a much better Rockport demo yesterday - and now have much clearer thoughts on the brand as the dealer made some significant improvements to the setup and used a more powerful Class AB setting on his Vitus amp. The lack of macro dynamics in the first demo was gone, as the big 15" side firing woofers were now doing their job.

I played all vinyl this time as I prefer the dealers Brinkmann rig to the Esoteric digital one - this time was on the Balance w/ 4 Point arm and Dynavector cartridge. I used the following demo music:

Max Richter "Three Worlds" and "The Blue Notebook"
Blake Mills "Heigh Ho"
Nils Frahm "All Melody"
Jason Isbell "Something More than Free"
London Grammar "If You Wait"
Calexico "Black Light"

We also ended with Time Out and Louis Armstrong for my friend who is a jazz fan.

The Rockports cast a very big sound stage - as a $103k speaker should - and a very even one. I felt they painted a very nice portrait of images without focusing on any single one if that makes sense. Flow was quite nice and not a hint of brightness - in fact I almost found them a shade warmer than my Devores at home which surprised me. Instrument timbre or texture was excellent, once again, and the sound decay off voices, chimes, etc seemed complete. In one of the Nils Frahm tracks, a solo trumpet appears out of the soundstage taking the listener completely off guard - and through the Rockport that image just floated in space magnificently, in a very natural manner on the canvas. The dealer had moved the speakers further out into the room, which I think was the reason for the more coherent sound I heard. I still did feel when that 15" "kicked on" at times though, and my friend and I surmised that in a wider, larger room that the Altair 2s would disappear more (14' x 28', we were sitting no more than 8' from them now).

Back to tonality, the treble on Rockports is a bit subdued for some, but not for me. I've read that people hence consider them dark, but I don't find that to be the case - as I find most treble unnaturally accentuated. I dislike "hearing the tweeter." My friend commented he found some missing "air" in the sound but he comes from accuton tweeters which are known for this. I find it interesting in the Devore reviews that the Nine and Orangutan have a much more subdued treble than the X, which I still find lacking sibilance as Ron also agreed with Friday evening (even on digital!). Midrange was very even-handed as I covered above- on London Grammar her voice was very pure of tone and in the right place without excess or bloated size. The most interesting thing from the demo is I feel Rockport could have the best bass of any speaker I've heard, sealed or ported. It just hits the exact right mix of extension with palpability on various types of music - and traditionally I've always preferred sealed bass, so go figure. On electronica, this was especially noticeable as also on Blake Mills, which highlighted how my Devores are deficient in this respect.

As I've mentioned before, dynamics, soundstage, and presence (or tone) are my 3 pillars of speaker evaluation with coherency a nearby second tier. I don't chase transparency, detail, bells and whistles, etc. On the subject of dynamics, the Rockport can provide big macrodynamics. This was easy to hear at the end of Blake Mills first cut - which had not been the case in my previous demo. I think the 15" with the higher power Class AB was the difference here. On microdynamics however, I still just felt that there was something missing. For instance, the realism on the bowing of a cello or violin, the plucking of strings, guitars, etc. Maybe a better word to say is a missing "energy" that I'm used to at home. Whether that's a function of the Rockports commendable flat FR curve, high order crossovers, or cabinet design characteristics I do not know but its definitely something that I noticed in both auditions.

One benefit of going through this audition process is re-evaluating your ideal sound (I don't believe in an absolute sound, period) - and leaving the Rockport had me reflecting on this for my future YG and Cessaro demos. This will be incredibly useful going forward. I feel the Rockport sound is all about transparent, evenhanded sound on a very natural sonic landscape charged with big bass when its needed. There is no fatigue factor of this sound at all, but not the sleepiness that I find with a Vandersteen for instance. Is this "my sound' is the question and one that will be answered soon, but I am inclined to say at this point that jump factor and energy are bigger components than I may have initially realized.

Secondly, comparing speakers in different rooms is, well, hard. Reversing the YG and Rockports in their respective rooms might yield very different sonic results. While the Rockport dealers room is treated (bass traps, first reflections, etc.) it is not in the same league as the other. And neither is as poor as my current room ;)
 

Al M.

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Very interesting report, thanks Keith. I guess both the high order crossovers and low efficiency of the speakers (the two may be interconnected) may be responsible for the lack of energy on plucking of strings, for example. Energy is also incredibly important to me, and I would not want to live without it.

Rockports seem to be really difficult to drive. I've heard the Altair on big Simaudio Moon monoblocks once, and the amps struggled. It sounded strained.
 
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