KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

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My sister just messaged, "let me tell you a secret. What you like is not necessarily the best". I was having a hard time distinguishing between the audio forum and the family whatsapp chat

Sometimes the real knowledge is knowing why the best is not the best. ;)
 
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bonzo75

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Is it possible the optical illusion take effect in disappearing act when listen minimonitors vs big ass horns or cones. :rolleyes:

No. Many small cones don't disappear either. I am not saying horns need to disappear in the same way. Planars and most cones do need to. So don't get defensive ;)
 

KeithR

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Regarding the Nagra: was it SET or push/pull (I thought it was push/pull)? I believe it is also a hybrid with a SS front end, like KR Audio does.

I think the Duo blends better with the bass because the mid horn goes down lower...for whatever reason, I always found it less colored than the smaller Uno mid-horn...perhaps the size/geometry gives a different set of resonances that are less harmful sonically with the Duo?

The DSP bass is likely to help integration and i think AG has improved their subs significantly; however, I think you should see what the Mezzo brings (if possible) before going with the normal XD...that short horn can significantly improve integration between bass and mid horn (although you noted no obvious issues there).

I am not sure what you mean by razor-like detail? Do you mean imaging precision? You stated that the micro dynamics were superb so I would consider the detail to be all there (based on what I have heard they definitely don't lack detail).

Nagra is PP, my preference actually. I actually am surprised you like AGs- they are different than the speakers you tend to enjoy.

Have no interest in the Mezzo, nor the +$20k budget. AG's main US dealer has told me before while they sound great, its not the best use of funds. The big step is from the Uno to the Duo because of integration, the removal of horn coloration, and better drivers. He actually believes its a bigger step than Duo to Trio.

If you compare AG to YG, the YG will have superior imaging, transparency, and detail. Honestly, its not close - that's what I mean. YG is like a lens has been removed from the sound. I'm sure @bonzo75 would agree.
 

morricab

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My sister just messaged, "let me tell you a secret. What you like is not necessarily the best". I was having a hard time distinguishing between the audio forum and the family whatsapp chat
At least you are consistent! ;)
 

morricab

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Nagra is PP, my preference actually. I actually am surprised you like AGs- they are different than the speakers you tend to enjoy.

Have no interest in the Mezzo, nor the +$20k budget. AG's main US dealer has told me before while they sound great, its not the best use of funds. The big step is from the Uno to the Duo because of integration, the removal of horn coloration, and better drivers. He actually believes its a bigger step than Duo to Trio.

If you compare AG to YG, the YG will have superior imaging, transparency, and detail. Honestly, its not close - that's what I mean. YG is like a lens has been removed from the sound. I'm sure @bonzo75 would agree.

I doubt the Nagra was the best choice...perhaps it was the best choice of what the dealer had on hand though...the Avantgardes are a sonic microscope.

Since I haven't heard the Mezzos, I cannot comment on the gap but i would definitely agree between Uno, which I would not buy, and Duo gap is larger than what I have heard from Duo and Trio. I would buy the Zero possibly though...it is well integrated and not obviously colored...and it's dynamic!

Why are you suprised that I like AG speakers? They are not so different as my speakers are horn as well (even spherical horns). True the bass is totally different, because mine is a backloaded horn, but the net result is more similar to an AG speaker than to a normal box speaker...much more similar. The three-way Odeons, which I also love, are even more similar in that they have a similar sized mid horn and even use the exact same tweeter as the Duo (Beyma ...and the bass is of a more conventional sort (but not active). Also, the awesome Aries Cerat Symphonia is a three-way horn... again bass is different but otherwise...

I have heard YG several times, several models and while they are detailed I can't honestly say that I hear more details with them...it is presented differently but it is all still there, IMO.
 

Folsom

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Sometimes when a speaker simply "doesn't do" something it's a bigger relief than if it does it mediocre to poorly. One will make you think about it all the time, the other you'll just forget about it.
 
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Folsom

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Freedom from the speaker with horns I (and friends with horns) have found to have a lot to do with the electronics. My own theory on SS amps is that they are less clean in the highs and this both makes them too grainy and aggressive for horns and also makes localization of the sound source (i.e. the speaker) more obvious. It is not so much warmth that is needed as an absence of high order harmonic distortion and noise. Get rid of that (also power management becomes very important) and they will disappear. You will also not need more than a couple of watts...I am getting away beautifully on my DIY horn project with a little tiny 5 watt Class A triode PP tube amp (it was less noisy than the 11 SEP so I use it on the horns) on 110db horns. More is really not needed...but it should be a very well designed 2-5 watts.

It's definitely the amount of damping. Compression drivers are very well damped. In fact anything for a horn is typically .14-.2 QTS. So some SS amps may over compensate for small stuff, and even when playing with extremely low distortion may sound rather astringent since the drivers are so well damped; and the amp is as well. If you try to turn the volume up to get more "meat" you're going to end up hurting your hears. There is no reason an SS amp has to be "the problem" or be "harsh". In fact I wouldn't ever use the word grainy, either. That's recording dependent (or the gear is just plain old not great). People don't necessarily want to hear the real low level information, not when it's in an astringent form. It's not particularly fun. A fuzzed version of some of the low volume information, and low damping on the other stuff makes much more sense for pleasure - so most people like da tubes on horns (front loaded, rear is very different and often has very different QTS drivers like fullrangers).

I recently heard a speaker that is well damped, with a combo horn/dynamic driver. The amplifier was very low feedback, and it was a very detailed presentation. The drivers' and box's own damping was plenty enough to convey the music without the amp trying to help. You get a bit of sweet spot when it comes to amplifiers providing damping. In the real low frequencies it's not as useful as the drivers own properties, and it becomes true once you get into the highest frequencies as well. I know you've seen plenty of graphs showing how most amps can do very little for changing distortion as frequency rises into the high stuff.
 

Tango

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No. Many small cones don't disappear either. I am not saying horns need to disappear in the same way. Planars and most cones do need to. So don't get defensive ;)
No chance that anything might have fooled your ears :rolleyes:? ..or even a little influence your head into thinking so ;)?

Tang
 

bonzo75

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No chance that anything might have fooled your ears :rolleyes:? ..or even a little influence your head into thinking so ;)?

Tang

Tang, if you like your horns because they disappear you should get Martin Logans. Also add some tweaks and they disappear well. Right now the only thing your hifi is disappearing is your money
 
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Audiophile Bill

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I am not subscribing to the notion that horns won’t provide backward layered imaging when pulled out into the room in the same way we might do with cones. I haven’t found any evidence to support this with any of the 3 pairs of horns I own (or owned). All have benefitted the layered imaging when pulled away from the wall.
 
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bonzo75

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Nagra is PP, my preference actually. I actually am surprised you like AGs- they are different than the speakers you tend to enjoy.

Have no interest in the Mezzo, nor the +$20k budget. AG's main US dealer has told me before while they sound great, its not the best use of funds. The big step is from the Uno to the Duo because of integration, the removal of horn coloration, and better drivers. He actually believes its a bigger step than Duo to Trio.

If you compare AG to YG, the YG will have superior imaging, transparency, and detail. Honestly, its not close - that's what I mean. YG is like a lens has been removed from the sound. I'm sure @bonzo75 would agree.

The trios have very good soundstage, imaging, and detail. They might not disappear like planars.

I have not heard the XD. I think the question to ask is do you consider duo a compromise to trio? Or any full range horn. If you do, it is an expensive compromise if you are going to upgrade again.

There is another hybrid called horns symphony. From same universum manufacturer. Right now the ex dem from Munich is going at 9k or so euro.

If you like hybrid horns there are many options, including from Acapella. You might like Blumenhofer too, though a different design.


 

Tango

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Tang, if you like your horns because they disappear you should get Martin Logans. Also add some tweaks and they disappear well. Right now the only thing your hifi is disappearing is your money
Now you are on an automatic pinching mode..hehe ... I understand it's your natural reflect thing..your unconciousness ;). I was talking about possible optical illusion of a small mini monitors in general not about the ability of my speakers to disappear. I don't defend gears. But you are right about my spending on audio :D.

Tang
 

Blue58

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The trios have very good soundstage, imaging, and detail. They might not disappear like planars.

I have not heard the XD. I think the question to ask is do you consider duo a compromise to trio? Or any full range horn. If you do, it is an expensive compromise if you are going to upgrade again.

There is another hybrid called horns symphony. From same universum manufacturer. Right now the ex dem from Munich is going at 9k or so euro.

If you like hybrid horns there are many options, including from Acapella. You might like Blumenhofer too, though a different design.


I don’t think the Duo are a compromise as the Trio require a much larger room and so are not really an option for many.

The Horns Symphony are 95dB and 35-20K and 8ohm so not really comparable to Duo, ie, wouldn’t work with a low powered SET.

Acapella and Blumenhofer are if I remember much more expensive than Duos so may be beyond budget.

IMO, the only other brand of speaker to give the feeling of a Duo is the PAP horn.

I think it’s about time you came clean and declared the Duo (XD) a decent speaker.

My Personal bias acknowledged.
 
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bonzo75

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Now you are on an automatic pinching mode..hehe ... I understand it's your natural reflect thing..your unconciousness ;). I was talking about possible optical illusion of a small mini monitors in general not about the ability of my speakers to disappear. I don't defend gears. But you are right about my spending on audio :D.

Tang

I know you are not talking about your gear. I have nothing to do right now
 

bonzo75

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I don’t think the Duo are a compromise as the Trio require a much larger room and so are not really an option for many.

The Horns Symphony are 95dB and 35-20K and 8ohm so not really comparable to Duo, ie, wouldn’t work with a low powered SET.

Acapella and Blumenhofer are if I remember much more expensive than Duos so may be beyond budget.

IMO, the only other brand of speaker to give the feeling of a Duo is the PAP horn.

I think it’s about time you came clean and declared the Duo (XD) a decent speaker.

My Personal bias acknowledged.

I don't like those Acapella hybrids etc as well. The Blumenhofer this year at Munich was the first time I liked them but that is without any deep dive
 

morricab

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The trios have very good soundstage, imaging, and detail. They might not disappear like planars.

I have not heard the XD. I think the question to ask is do you consider duo a compromise to trio? Or any full range horn. If you do, it is an expensive compromise if you are going to upgrade again.

There is another hybrid called horns symphony. From same universum manufacturer. Right now the ex dem from Munich is going at 9k or so euro.

If you like hybrid horns there are many options, including from Acapella. You might like Blumenhofer too, though a different design.


The Acapella LaCampanella sounds better to me than this speaker from hoRNs. It was not so c
It's definitely the amount of damping. Compression drivers are very well damped. In fact anything for a horn is typically .14-.2 QTS. So some SS amps may over compensate for small stuff, and even when playing with extremely low distortion may sound rather astringent since the drivers are so well damped; and the amp is as well. If you try to turn the volume up to get more "meat" you're going to end up hurting your hears. There is no reason an SS amp has to be "the problem" or be "harsh". In fact I wouldn't ever use the word grainy, either. That's recording dependent (or the gear is just plain old not great). People don't necessarily want to hear the real low level information, not when it's in an astringent form. It's not particularly fun. A fuzzed version of some of the low volume information, and low damping on the other stuff makes much more sense for pleasure - so most people like da tubes on horns (front loaded, rear is very different and often has very different QTS drivers like fullrangers).

I recently heard a speaker that is well damped, with a combo horn/dynamic driver. The amplifier was very low feedback, and it was a very detailed presentation. The drivers' and box's own damping was plenty enough to convey the music without the amp trying to help. You get a bit of sweet spot when it comes to amplifiers providing damping. In the real low frequencies it's not as useful as the drivers own properties, and it becomes true once you get into the highest frequencies as well. I know you've seen plenty of graphs showing how most amps can do very little for changing distortion as frequency rises into the high stuff.
interesting. My DIY horns are using a midbass that also has a QTS of only about 0.2. With anything other than a low damping amp it sounds tight and thin.

Good SET without feedback will not exhibit the same rise in distortion at high frequencies as a typical PP amp (SS or tube) with negative feedback and at low power needed by horns in domestic environments, they will also have very low distortion at all frequencies (as long as the output trafos are big enough).
 

Mark Seaton

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Correct. It may be as low as zero. You can get say a reflection from the wall behind you, back to the forward wall, and then back again; but it'll have lost most of the volume, definition, and be so out of time that it's just not significant enough to mean anything.

So when AG says some of their speakers can be pinned against a wall, they're telling the truth. What doesn't necessarily work for someone is the illusion of a band being up against a wall. It may be much more "believable" to pull the band into the room a bit, for those that listen for that sensation.

It really depends on the throat size and frequencies as to how much goes backwards. There are plenty of horns that send a good amount back, but some may be in chosen frequency ranges that aren't offensive/are additive to the experience. There's a variety of reasons for using horns, and hence there can be a variety of actual directivity.

I would say there's almost zero horns we can fit in our rooms that have zero sound radiating behind them. It might be 10-20dB lower than the sound on axis, but not zero. The placement with respect to the front wall still greatly impacts the midbass region. While you can definitely still get subjective depth of soundstage from horns, that range of placement won't hover entirely behind the speakers as you might get with a pair of panel speakers. The presentation relative to the speaker is shifted toward the listener to a varying degree in most listening spaces. Of course there are always some exceptions.
 

Folsom

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interesting. My DIY horns are using a midbass that also has a QTS of only about 0.2. With anything other than a low damping amp it sounds tight and thin.

Good SET without feedback will not exhibit the same rise in distortion at high frequencies as a typical PP amp (SS or tube) with negative feedback and at low power needed by horns in domestic environments, they will also have very low distortion at all frequencies (as long as the output trafos are big enough).

Yes but an SET is already higher distortion, so there's no real purpose in talking about that. IMO all distortion is fairly negligible. We can't really identify distortion itself until it gets pretty darn high (well past 1%). We can however engage the signature of the distortion at almost any level.
 

bonzo75

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I think the main problem with such description is how non horn listeners will try to visualize how a horn sounds like from a Magico or Wilson or ML layering perspective. That does not work. It reminds me of how people back in India who have never had sushi think of Indian fried fish, take away the savory spice, and wonder how you can eat that Indian fish raw. It is not the right way to view nor describe it
 

Folsom

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I would say there's almost zero horns we can fit in our rooms that have zero sound radiating behind them. It might be 10-20dB lower than the sound on axis, but not zero. The placement with respect to the front wall still greatly impacts the midbass region. While you can definitely still get subjective depth of soundstage from horns, that range of placement won't hover entirely behind the speakers as you might get with a pair of panel speakers. The presentation relative to the speaker is shifted toward the listener to a varying degree in most listening spaces. Of course there are always some exceptions.

That depends on the frequency. And I'd say some of the rooms are pretty darn big. Some of these horn designs may not have very long throats, but sometimes have very wide baffle size. 300hz is only 3.6ft long, not the hardest target for a horn size+baffle width, to be literally the size of the wavelength - and you don't need the full wavelength to achieve increasing directionality (1/4 being the min start). 20db would be received as 1/4 volume, that's pretty substantial, even if a decent amount were to go backwards.

There's a lot of sound bouncing around, no matter what you do. But I'll still say that for the most part the brain can't deal with "viewing" a band that's basically in the wall. There's nothing wrong with benefit being primarily psychological. And our relationship from other reflections to the back wall are affected by speaker distance, too - you are moving the speakers closer to you if you pull them into the room.
 
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