Krell KBL vs. Krell KRC-HR

[mep]

I know there are several of you on this forum who at one time had both of these preamps in your system. The KRC-HR is the newer and much more expensive of the two and it does have a cool remote. I was told to expect a bigger, deeper soundstage with a better top-end with the KRC-HR in comparison to the KBL. The first 24 hours the KRC-HR was in my system it left me cold. After 24 hours of being on continuously it came to life and sounded much better. As time went by I started having some nagging doubts about the KRC-HR's sound quality compared to what I was used to hearing with the KBL.

The KBL is a very ballsy preamp. For some reason it just oozes power and you almost feel like if it had some speaker binding posts it could drive your speakers. Looking at the specs of the KBL and the KRC-HR, the line stage gain is the same. They both have a gain switch where you can switch in an additional 6dB of gain and that is available via the remote for the KRC-HR. For whatever reason, the KBL just sounds far more powerful than the KRC-HR. When I listen to digital files through the KBL, I have to take out the additional 6dB of gain in the line stage because as soon as you turn the volume knob past the "off" position it will blow you out of my room. This doesn't happen with the KRC-HR. I can leave in the additional 6dB of gain for all of my sources when listening to the KRC-HR.

Never mind the volume issues though, I'm becoming convinced that the KBL is the better sounding preamp. The KRC-HR sounds maybe more polite and refined, but I'm not convinced that it represents musical reality in that many instruments aren't polite sounding when heard live. Stand close to a live band that has any brass instruments and you will understand what I'm saying. The KBL sounds more like a good tube preamp minus the noise inherent in vacuum tubes while the KRC-HR reminds me more of SS. There might be more edge definition with the KRC-HR, but it comes at the expense of the whole note and the images they create if that makes any sense.

I would like to hear from people who owned both of these preamps and see if you can recollect whether or not when you bought the KRC-HR if you thought it was a much better preamp and if so, why? Did you ever have any nagging doubts that maybe just maybe the KBL might be better? I know I am and I currently have both preamps. I need to put the KRC-HR back into my system again, but I'm having a hard time forcing myself to do that.

 

[Steve Williams]

you ears, your wallet and your butt in the sweet spot so go with your best Mark which is the KBL. I've never owned it but have owned the KRC and the KRC-HR and loved them but never heard the KBL

 

[RBFC]

Wish I could help more. I loved my KBL/KPA combo. Were I going to go 2 channel again, the KBL would be a great used buy.

Lee

 

[mep]

I just removed the KBL from my system and reinstalled the KRC-HR to give it another shot. One thing that struck me is that the KBL weighs more than the KRC-HR and the KBL power supply is bigger than the KRC-HR power supply. Does that mean anything? Maybe is my answer. It might partially explain why the KBL sounds more powerful than the KRC-HR which is an odd term to use to describe a line stage I realize. Whether or not the KRC-HR is the better line stage (and that remains to be seen for me right now), the KBL is still one hell of a line stage even if it isn't the freshest face on the audiophile block. The KRC-HR *should* sound better as it was around twice expensive as the KBL. The KBL has a ridiculously low output impedance (.5 ohm) which means it could drive basically any amplifier known to man. The KRC-HR has a higher output impedance than the KBL, but it's still very low.

We shall see...

 

[microstrip]

I just removed the KBL from my system and reinstalled the KRC-HR to give it another shot. One thing that struck me is that the KBL weighs more than the KRC-HR and the KBL power supply is bigger than the KRC-HR power supply. Does that mean anything? Maybe is my answer. It might partially explain why the KBL sounds more powerful than the KRC-HR which is an odd term to use to describe a line stage I realize. Whether or not the KRC-HR is the better line stage (and that remains to be seen for me right now), the KBL is still one hell of a line stage even if it isn't the freshest face on the audiophile block. The KRC-HR *should* sound better as it was around twice expensive as the KBL. The KBL has a ridiculously low output impedance (.5 ohm) which means it could drive basically any amplifier known to man. The KRC-HR has a higher output impedance than the KBL, but it's still very low.

We shall see...

Mep,

If it is heavier either it has more atoms or atoms from an heavier element or both. It is all I can say. Supporters of the HRC will tell that perhaps it is because the case of the HRC is made of aluminum and that of the KBL is made of iron containing materials, that are heavier and are usually avoided by high-end designers because of magnetic distortions ...

Considering the output impedance, usually designers of high-bandwidth electronics introduce a series resistor with the output to improve the output stage behavior with the typical load defined by the cable and amplifier input. It seems the KBL designer forgot it ...

Do you now know what was my preference?

My advice - enjoy your KBL and forget about the KRC. Also put me in your ignore file . It is mostly a question of system matching and preference and it seems that you really prefer the KBL.

PS - I really do not remember what was the material used in the case of each of them - I was joking!

 

[mep]

You had me going there for a minute micro. I'm pretty sure both cases and both power supplies are made from aluminum. I do assume you believe the KRC-HR to be the better preamp? My mind is not made up yet and that is why I put the KRC-HR back into the system to give it another go.

 

[mep]

I think I have made my decision. One of the nagging doubts I had was after listening to Ella and Louis which is a 1956 recording. The first time I listened to this album via DSD through the KRC-HR, I was amazed at how good this recording is and how real the voices sound. Louis Armstrong has a very unique voice that has lots of vibrato and is fairly deep. All of his inflections stood out quite plainly via the KRC-HR. When I listened to this via the KBL, it sounded like someone was squeezing Louie's onions and his voice went up an octave and all of the bass vibrato was pretty much MIA. Thus my nagging doubts. I played this album again last night through the KRC and Louie was back big time, bass vibrato and all. I seriously doubt there is a single clue in all of the measurements that have been taken and published from both preamps that would possibly explain why this is so, but it is. The KRC simply passes on more information than the KBL is capable of as much as it pains me to say that because it is a damn good sounding preamp.

And by the way, I can't say enough about the Ella and Louis album. 5 years ago you couldn't have paid me to listen to this type of music. These are old fashioned classic love songs with two great voices and a great band (the Oscar Peterson Quartet) performing for us. As close as you can come to having a system that sounds like real people are singing in your room (or you are in their room), this is coming pretty damn close. And when that horn comes in on song after song, it damn near will blow you out of your chair which is what wind instruments do in real life. This is yet another recording from the 1950s that shames so many modern recordings.

 

[A.wayne]

Are you saying you prefer the music you have become a custom to thru the KBL and the new stuff through the KRC, if so typical placebo !

Go ahead and get two decent headphones , ( if u already have , good) listen to the recordings thru them and then compare and see which one gets you the closest to the recording ...

Better yet ,

Sell them both and get a Pass pre-amp ....

 

[A.wayne]

Looking at these tells a different tale, you should take a look...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-kbl-preamplifier-measurements

http://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-audio-standard-power-amplifier-measurements

 

[mep]

Are you saying you prefer the music you have become a custom to thru the KBL and the new stuff through the KRC, if so typical placebo !

Go ahead and get two decent headphones , ( if u already have , good) listen to the recordings thru them and then compare and see which one gets you the closest to the recording ...

Better yet ,

Sell them both and get a Pass pre-amp ....

First of all, it's "accustomed to" not " a custom to." Second, I never said that I preferred music I was accustomed to through the KBL and new music via the KRC-HR. The example I gave of Ella and Louis was heard for the first time (and second, and third, and forth) via the KRC-HR. It was after these listening experiences that I heard it through the KBL and heard what I described above. After putting the KRC-HR back in, all was restored to the land of musical righteousness and Louie sounded like Louie again.

 

[A.wayne]

You need to work on your reading comprehension .....

 

[mep]

You need to work on your reading comprehension .....

You keep using that tired line as a crutch. Maybe you need to think through your thoughts before you commit them to a post.

 

[A.wayne]

Yes MEP,

I'm the one struggling to hear the difference between pre-amps, my suggestions stand if you are still confused, read back slowly and try to understand my post in response to what you posted or if you prefer I can be reticent about such in the future.

Aside, may i suggest using your head to isolate your TT, nothing like a solid foundation ....

 

[mep]

I reread your comments and see no further insights or interpretations from when I first read them. You were wrong on your first assumption. You advised to listen to both preamps through headphones though neither of them has a headphone jack (and I detest headphones anyway). You ended your post by suggesting I sell both preamps and buy a Pass preamp which was also very helpful.

 

[RBFC]

So, Mark, are you selling the KBL? It makes sense that the KRC was an evolutionary step (that I've not heard) and I hope that you derive great enjoyment from it!

Lee

 

[mep]

Probably Lee. There will still be a tinge of sadness to let it go. It's a beautifully built *machine* and it sounds beautiful. I have owned lots of preamps over the years, and the KBL gives most of them a beating.

 

[A.wayne]

So MEP, I'm wrong because you detest headphones and dont understand my response....

Seeing how friendly you are by giving others a tuff time about their system , let me give this a shot ...

1. You should sell them and get a Pass Pre, I did it was much better, I used it on my KSA200/300 and still in use today.( I have 4 Pre's)
2. Then i would upgrade the speakers, too closed in and boxey sounding , ( yes since no one else would tell you, )
3. You should also get yourself a source for headphones, this can be a separate headphone amp or you can use your R/R.
4. Use the headphones as one of your references, no need to detest, it's just a tool, err, like you .
5. Headphones are a good tool to clear the smoke and assist you in hearing details and coloration, big help in hearing Louie .
6. The difference between the two pre's are not even close, the KBL is not a good sounding Pre and that's being nice...
7. I have broken this down numerically, should be a big help with your comprehension issue ...



Regards,

 

[mep]

So MEP, I'm wrong because you detest headphones and dont understand my response....

Seeing how friendly you are by giving others a tuff time about their system , let me give this a shot ...

1. You should sell them and get a Pass Pre, I did it was much better, I used it on my KSA200/300 and still in use today.( I have 4 Pre's)
2. Then i would upgrade the speakers, too closed in and boxey sounding , ( yes since no one else would tell you, )
3. You should also get yourself a source for headphones, this can be a separate headphone amp or you can use your R/R.
4. Use the headphones as one of your references, no need to detest, it's just a tool, err, like you .
5. Headphones are a good tool to clear the smoke and assist you in hearing details and coloration, big help in hearing Louie .
6. The difference between the two pre's are not even close, the KBL is not a good sounding Pre and that's being nice...
7. I have broken this down numerically, should be a big help with your comprehension issue ...



Regards,

I'm more than a little tired of you and your nonsense. You write perfectly clear (if nonsensical) statements that leave no room for misinterpretation and yet you like to say that I need to work on my reading comprehension because what you said is not what you meant. You need to work on your writing skills so you can learn to write what you are trying to say.

Even though you said you were going to post the details of your system some time ago, you still haven't done that yet. But meanwhile back at the ranch, you continue to take potshots at my system. I'm surprised that mods haven't already stepped in with your last post to me.

 

[Steve Williams]

Not to worry Mark, I can assure you that we are keenly aware of this thread

BTW, IMO you made the right decision by keeping the KRC-HR

 

[microstrip]

Mep,
I am glad you are enjoying my preference, my posts will now start including subliminal messages to move you towards a great tube preamplifier.

Do you know that the original KRC sounded like a solid state preamplifier and the HR modification made it sound more like a refined tube design?