LP vs. digital from a price perspective?

rbbert

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I don't want this to get too emotional, but I'm quite curious about others' opinions on this issue.

A recent thread at Audio Circle got me to thinking again about the price disparity between LP playback and digital disc playback (not even considering computer > DAC playback). Quite a few vinylistas (and I really can't think of a better term) were suggesting to a gentleman with a very nice system (Pass Labs XA-160.5 monoblocks,First Sound Paramount Plus mkIII tube preamp (single ended only),AMR DP-777 DAC modified by Avatar Acoustics,Bolder modified Squeezebox Touch with Bolder deluxe power supply,Daedalus Ulysses AP speakers,Dynamic Design cables) and apparently no LP experience that very very inexpensive LP playback equipment would be adequate to give him an idea how LP's sound. I think they are crazy, and argued instead for at least a good mid-level LP system (like Class B).

Looking at Stereophile's most recent Recommended Components, the rough median price for table/arm/cartridge/preamp in Class B is about $8000. For digital, comparable values for Class B is $1500, Class A is $4200, and Class A+ is only $9000!!

So do audiophiles who prefer LP's really think the best digital is only equivalent to mid-level LP playback, and entry level LP (arbitrarily defined by me as under $1000 for the whole shebang) sonically comparable to good mid-level digital (like the gentleman's system described above)?
 

Bruce B

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I think with the best sourced digital, even a "lowly" Mytek Stereo DSD DAC can compete with a TT up to $10k

Once you get above $12-15k for a TT... there is not much digital out there that's even going to keep up.
 

Shaffer

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So do audiophiles who prefer LP's really think the best digital is only equivalent to mid-level LP playback, and entry level LP (arbitrarily defined by me as under $1000 for the whole shebang) sonically comparable to good mid-level digital (like the gentleman's system described above)?

If by mid-level you mean a $500 Pro-Ject with a better cart, the answer is a big NO.

OTOH, $1000 on the used market can buy an easy contender.

vinylistas (and I really can't think of a better term)

Would it, now, be fair to call you a numerically confined or a synthetically motivated listener?
 

MylesBAstor

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If by mid-level you mean a $500 Pro-Ject with a better cart, the answer is a big NO.

OTOH, $1000 on the used market can buy an easy contender.

Would it, now, be fair to call you a numerically confined or a synthetically motivated listener?

Traveller ($1300) with a Denon 103D cartridge (amazing sound for $300).
 

rbbert

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Traveller ($1300) with a Denon 103D cartridge (amazing sound for $300).

See, that's the thing; I'm very familiar with the sound of that Denon cartridge (although I did replace it with a Shure V15) in an SME series 3 arm on a LP12 using a hot-rodded Vandersteen phono preamp; that was my last serious LP setup at the turn of the century. And the point is it was my last. To me, that's not competitive with an Oppo 95; I didn't think it was competitive with my Marantz SA8260 SACD/CD player.

I'm even more familiar with so-called "entry-level" LP today, for example Rega and Pro-ject (or used Denon or Technics), Ortofon or Audio Technica cartridges, Musical Fidelity cheap pre. I don't know how anyone can use Rega 'tables, the speed inaccuracy and instability drive me nuts, but even the Project 'tables aren't good enough for me to seriously recommend it to anyone over comparably priced good digital gear.

Now something like the Scoutmaster II, a Lyra cartridge and a better Musical Fidelity pre can sound pretty good, but now we're up to at least $6k new
 

mep

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rbbert-It sounds like you had already made your mind up before you started the thread.
 

rbbert

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rbbert-It sounds like you had already made your mind up before you started the thread.

What I'm curious about is whether someone's preference for LP is "absolute" (in the sense that the person is anti-digital) or whether, as Bruce posted, there's actual interest in better sound quality regardless of the source type. That's what the (derogatory) term "vinylistas" means to me; preference for LP over anything else (usually including open-reel tape) regardless of accuracy of sound reproduction. My current preference for digital is largely price motivated, although the PITA factor of LP playback also contributes, because it takes away from my enjoyment of the music.

Nevertheless, I'm always interested in better sounding sources, and I do enjoy my relatively infrequent visits to people with well setup, very expensive LP playback. Cheap and even much (or most?) so called mid-level (roughly up to that VPI/Lyra level I mentioned) LP playback doesn't strike me as "better" than digital (like my current Modwright Oppo 95) priced much lower; if someone else does, I know there will be some degree of failure to communicate between us in that area.
 

Mike Lavigne

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If by mid-level you mean a $500 Pro-Ject with a better cart, the answer is a big NO.

OTOH, $1000 on the used market can buy an easy contender.

Would it, now, be fair to call you a numerically confined or a synthetically motivated listener?

i agree, but also agree with Bruce too.

my point being that with vinyl, there is a large opportunity for the DIY crowd to get high performance from modest pieces. some DIY tt's are very very good. modified tonearms can get quite good. hot-rodded modestly priced cartridges can get very good. and perfect set-up can bring modest pieces to higher levels of performance.

a vinyl set-up has so many moving parts, as well as ranges of quality of pressings. the highest quality pressings will be somewhat magical on almost any vinyl rig.

so while i agree with Bruce on the approx $10k range (for brand new current product vinyl set-ups) for where vinyl starts to pull away from digital....it's a 'soft floor' when modifications and really well thought out used vinyl set-ups is considered.
 
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MylesBAstor

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See, that's the thing; I'm very familiar with the sound of that Denon cartridge (although I did replace it with a Shure V15) in an SME series 3 arm on a LP12 using a hot-rodded Vandersteen phono preamp; that was my last serious LP setup at the turn of the century. And the point is it was my last. To me, that's not competitive with an Oppo 95; I didn't think it was competitive with my Marantz SA8260 SACD/CD player.

I'm even more familiar with so-called "entry-level" LP today, for example Rega and Pro-ject (or used Denon or Technics), Ortofon or Audio Technica cartridges, Musical Fidelity cheap pre. I don't know how anyone can use Rega 'tables, the speed inaccuracy and instability drive me nuts, but even the Project 'tables aren't good enough for me to seriously recommend it to anyone over comparably priced good digital gear.

Now something like the Scoutmaster II, a Lyra cartridge and a better Musical Fidelity pre can sound pretty good, but now we're up to at least $6k new

Well you need to listen to relisten. Perhaps the Denon wasn't a good match with your arm because of the cartridge's very high compliance/low mass or the phono section because of it's low output. Heard the Denon at the show and it blew me away. Major thing it was missing was some ambience but did nothing to annoy, unlike digital.

I guess it's all your perspective because I find many inexpensive players, especially the longer you listen to them, mechanical, thin, boring, hard sounding and amusical. Never would say that about a good, inexpensive table.

Remember years ago Roy Hall's 500 dollar table clobbering the $2500 Cal Audio Labs player, then the darling of the digital crowd.
 
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opus111

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my point being that with vinyl, there is a large opportunity for the DIY crowd to get high performance from modest pieces. some DIY tt's are very very good. modified tonearms can get quite good. hot-rodded modestly priced cartridges can get very good. and perfect set-up can bring modest pieces to higher levels of performance.

Same is true of DIY for digital - plenty of guys over on DIYA have been playing with TDA1541A in NOS with optimized layout for years at budget prices. The thread on 'Ultimate NOS DAC with TDA1541A' on DIYA has had over a million hits so far.
 

rbbert

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...I guess it's all your perspective because I find many inexpensive players, especially the longer you listen to them, mechanical, thin, boring, hard sounding and amusical. Never would say that about a good, inexpensive table...

Interesting, because while I know you like LP's I didn't realize your preference was so absolute. For me, the words "good", "inexpensive" and "table" don't go together in the same sentence :confused:
 

Mike Lavigne

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Same is true of DIY for digital - plenty of guys over on DIYA have been playing with TDA1541A in NOS with optimized layout for years at budget prices. The thread on 'Ultimate NOS DAC with TDA1541A' on DIYA has had over a million hits so far.

the only difference is the level of data in the grooves verses the level of data in the 16/44.

the difference between decent redbook and top flight redbook is just not that much.

the difference between base level vinyl and top flight vinyl is huge.

before you tell me that i have no idea, understand with my high level vinyl rig and high level tape sitting right here i spent the last week listening to only digital because it sounds so good. i'm loving it. it's great. but if i were to compare what i'm hearing to my 13 year old Linn CD-12 i owned back in the day there would not be that much difference.

OTOH if i were to compare my current vinyl rig to my VPI TNT Mk2 or Basis 2500 vinyl rigs from that same period it would be night and day.

i'm not saying that DIY NOS dacs are not great, but vinyl is a whole different thing because there is so much more data to be found.
 

puroagave

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What I'm curious about is whether someone's preference for LP is "absolute" (in the sense that the person is anti-digital) or whether, as Bruce posted, there's actual interest in better sound quality regardless of the source type. That's what the (derogatory) term "vinylistas" means to me; preference for LP over anything else (usually including open-reel tape) regardless of accuracy of sound reproduction. My current preference for digital is largely price motivated, although the PITA factor of LP playback also contributes, because it takes away from my enjoyment of the music.

Nevertheless, I'm always interested in better sounding sources, and I do enjoy my relatively infrequent visits to people with well setup, very expensive LP playback. Cheap and even much (or most?) so called mid-level (roughly up to that VPI/Lyra level I mentioned) LP playback doesn't strike me as "better" than digital (like my current Modwright Oppo 95) priced much lower; if someone else does, I know there will be some degree of failure to communicate between us in that area.

there was a time i used to give the finger to digital. i had the best TT i could afford and for years i used a low-end 14 bit magnavox Cd player b/c i refused to collect many CDs. i left the hobby a few times, sold off a large vinyl collection and nearly 20-yrs later I re-entered the hobby. i had bought many CDs during that time and tried to go 100% digital, and i lke a lot of it esp. hi-res/DSD. but something is always missing, and im not saying digital lacks something only analog seems to flesh out more - its a certain aesthetic that if you have to expain it, then you'll never get it.

i think you can like both, why does it have to be black and white for some people. lifes is too short i dont make excuses for listening to either format they both give me pleasure, vinyl more so.
 

NorthStar

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I think with the best sourced digital, even a "lowly" Mytek Stereo DSD DAC can compete with a TT up to $10k

Once you get above $12-15k for a TT... there is not much digital out there that's even going to keep up.

---- Even the dCS Scarlatti digital playback system?
 

MylesBAstor

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Interesting, because while I know you like LP's I didn't realize your preference was so absolute. For me, the words "good", "inexpensive" and "table" don't go together in the same sentence :confused:

Conversely, I see one having to spend significantly more money on digital than analog gear to find something musical.
 

opus111

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the only difference is the level of data in the grooves verses the level of data in the 16/44.

I'm not sure what you mean here - I don't listen to data.

the difference between decent redbook and top flight redbook is just not that much.

Refresh my memory please as to what 'top flight redbook' incarnates as for you. By which I mean please give example converters/players.

the difference between base level vinyl and top flight vinyl is huge.

For me, base level digital would be iPod - the difference between that and what I'm listening to right now is massive. And my DAC's a very cheap DIY one as you're probably aware :p

before you tell me that i have no idea, understand with my high level vinyl rig and high level tape sitting right here i spent the last week listening to only digital because it sounds so good. i'm loving it. it's great. but if i were to compare what i'm hearing to my 13 year old Linn CD-12 i owned back in the day there would not be that much difference.

Elucidate please on what digital you had in your rig.

i'm not saying that DIY NOS dacs are not great, but vinyl is a whole different thing because there is so much more data to be found.

As for my first sentence, I have no idea what you mean by 'more data'. Have you listened to a decent DIY NOS DAC incidentally?
 

opus111

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Conversely, I see one having to spend significantly more money on digital than analog gear to find something musical.

Yeah I see that as an indictment of the dysfunctionality of digital design nowadays (S-D converters, opamps, poor layouts, clueless about noise control) rather than anything intrinsically wrong with RBCD as a format. But I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.
 

mep

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Stand by Opus...
 

NorthStar

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-- I just took the time here to do some actual calculations.

* I have the Stereophile Recommended Components - Collector's Edition | 10 Years
2013 issue. ...So from 2003 to 2012. ...I averaged all prices for the last ten years.

Here are some facts:

* Average Analog Playback (Turntables) | Class A+ = $117,000 ... 2 products.
* Average Digital Playback (Disc Players & Media Servers) | Class A+ = $12,000 ... 32 items.

* Average Analog Playback (Turntables) | Class A = $24,900 ... 26 products.
* Average Digital Playback (Disc Players & Media Servers) | Class A = $6,600 ... 55 products.

__________________

In Class A+ from above, the Analog Playback is roughly ten (10) times more expensive than the Digital Playback one from the same Class A+.
And in the Class A category, the Analog Playback is roughly four (4) times more expensive than the Digital Playback.

I did not calculate Class B, and Class C, and Class D (for both Analog & Digital Playback source); just too many products, and as I wanted to stay only with the very best from these two top classes (Class A+ and Class A).

Also, remember that with Analog (Turntable) Playback, not all of them come with a Cartridge, Tonearm, Phono Preamp, and Record Cleaning Machine.
...Plus all the other indispensable tools for proper adjustments and maintenance.

With Digital Playback, some of them are much more complete than others (features, Disc medias, USB, etc.). You know, like some play CDs, and SACDs, and DVDs, and Blu-rays, and Streaming high res audio, and from USB sticks, Internet, etc., etc., etc.

The access to a vast selection of music from a Digital playback system is much larger than an Analog Playback one. And the tools required are also much less than with Analog. ...As some of them (if not the majority) have already everything included.
I think you know what I'm saying here.
...Just the facts ladies and gentlemen, just the facts.
 
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