Michael Fremer's home power-system story

CKKeung

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Both an entertaining and useful youtube.
:D



 
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Addicted to hifi

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Both an entertaing and useful youtube.
:D



Great clip thanks for posting.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Rex and Ed are local Seattle friends and both are WBF members. they did an awesome job.

watching this video should be required prior to asking about any power grid, or power conditioner problem. first things first......before the second, third and fourth things about how A/C power effects your system performance.

this is about the first thing.
 
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Jeffy

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Apr 27, 2014
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My question is why couldn't Michael find people near him to do the job. I'm just curious why these two had to come all the way from Seattle? I can imagine the bill. I would love to have that Fluke meter but the cost is 3,000.00.
 

SCAudiophile

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Fremer did find a local certified electrician who had done work before to do the work in question. However...

As a rule, the methods and specific techniques they are using are not commonplace even among the more knowledge audio power installers. The dual ground rods, CADWELD bonding, large gauge ground leads and several things in that video are things I've used on prior homes back to 2008 and 2014 however there are many refinements in their approach and the specifics of the design and hand-build of the sub-panels, etc..wiring methods, etc...that are really first out of the gate from all I can see in the industry. Where Rex is certified he does the work himself; when in another state he will triage, assess and design the job to be done and then provides a service to oversee your local certified electricians doing the work. He'll also craft and ship in the panel(s) in question. They'd have to comment further on the travel aspects.
 
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Jeffy

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Apr 27, 2014
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Orchard Lake, MI
Fremer did find a local certified electrician who had done work before to do the work in question. However...

As a rule, the methods and specific techniques they are using are not commonplace even among the more knowledge audio power installers. The dual ground rods, CADWELD bonding, large gauge ground leads and several things in that video are things I've used on prior homes back to 2008 and 2014 however there are many refinements in their approach and the specifics of the design and hand-build of the sub-panels, etc..wiring methods, etc...that are really first out of the gate from all I can see in the industry. Where Rex is certified he does the work himself; when in another state he will triage, assess and design the job to be done and then provides a service to oversee your local certified electricians doing the work. He'll also craft and ship in the panel(s) in question. They'd have to comment further on the travel aspects.
Like I said the bill for those guys must be a fortune.
 

SCAudiophile

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One further note....dual ground rods and some of the above is by no means revolutionary with respect to that part. Rex is also experienced with more complicated custom grounding solutions for more difficult installs (non-uniform or partially conductive terrain, etc....). There's a wealth of different problems that can come up; it's best to connect with someone who's seen all the variants.
 

ddk

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May 19, 2013
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Both an entertaining and useful youtube.
:D



This should tell you something about the value of all those reviews :rolleyes:! Getting your electricity right and eliminating hum and buzz is basic stuff!

david
 

bryans

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Very interesting video. I must admit, I have a Generac generator and when my power goes out and my generator kicks in I usually don't listen to my system.
 
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PeterA

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This should tell you something about the value of all those reviews :rolleyes:! Getting your electricity right and eliminating hum and buzz is basic stuff!

david

The article's comment section is interesting. A couple people bring up this very point. I have done some work on my power delivery, but I need to do more with grounding. It does make a difference.
 
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andromedaaudio

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This should tell you something about the value of all those reviews :rolleyes:! Getting your electricity right and eliminating hum and buzz is basic stuff!

david
Absolutely .

Now i know why all those expensive cable manufacturers have their origin in the US , its to compensate for the shitty 50 year old aluminium cabling :)
I thought that only still existed in 3 rd world countries , but i was obviously wrong .
 
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microstrip

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My question is why couldn't Michael find people near him to do the job. I'm just curious why these two had to come all the way from Seattle? I can imagine the bill. I would love to have that Fluke meter but the cost is 3,000.00.

I have been saying it in WBF since long, we can get the spectra of our mains for free using a Windows computer, an USB soundcard and the demo version of Spectraplus. All we need is a toroidal power transformer, some wire and a plug. Surely the Fluke is more convenient and persuasive ...
 
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SCAudiophile

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Sep 11, 2010
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Very interesting video. I must admit, I have a Generac generator and when my power goes out and my generator kicks in I usually don't listen to my system.
One of the things they cover in the video and I've heard from a couple of other people I know unrelated to this discussion is that once they wired in the panel, inverter circuitry and monitoring boards with the generator, that their audio quality suffered 24x7 after that as the generator-related circuits are up and running, monitoring for power loss. Granted they said it was even worse when it kicked over fully on generator power however I think that unless steps are taken, installing a generator setup has a 24x7 impact. If memory serves Fremer made a comment to that effect earlier in the video or in one of his writings (or both).
 

microstrip

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Fremer did find a local certified electrician who had done work before to do the work in question. However...

As a rule, the methods and specific techniques they are using are not commonplace even among the more knowledge audio power installers. The dual ground rods, CADWELD bonding, large gauge ground leads and several things in that video are things I've used on prior homes back to 2008 and 2014 however there are many refinements in their approach and the specifics of the design and hand-build of the sub-panels, etc..wiring methods, etc...that are really first out of the gate from all I can see in the industry. Where Rex is certified he does the work himself; when in another state he will triage, assess and design the job to be done and then provides a service to oversee your local certified electricians doing the work. He'll also craft and ship in the panel(s) in question. They'd have to comment further on the travel aspects.

Any electrician certified to make an electrical installation in health services or laboratories should be able to carry this type of work. When I rebuilt my house I had the new ground measured. Many people ignore that the best part of a separate power supply is not the dedicated neutral and hot, but the dedicated ground wire!

Power mains is not rocket science or magic. But audiophiles are a special community - I have no doubt that subjectively some of us would prefer the sound associated to poor or poluted mains.
 

SCAudiophile

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Sep 11, 2010
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Separating this out so it's not a direct reply that looks like it's targeting the poster,...."those guys must be a fortune"

Truth is, I don't know but frankly it's a natural assumption. I think the best course would be to ask and get facts if someone
were interested. The only first hand knowledge I have from discussions with them on possibilities for my place, is that they
have a lot of different levels of engagement from small/lower cost to larger so to speak and all seemed reasonably priced
compared to commodity options so depending upon what is needed, it might not be as much as other situations.
Now clearly if someone lived in the desert or on the high planes (where lighting strike takes on a whole new meaning) and needed
some rarefied grounding and protection field, that's another matter whether with them or any one of the other specialists that
cater to such projects.

I think the travel for a multi-day big project like Fremer's with the opportunity it afforded them may have more inner detail
and might also not be the norm requirement.

Trying to stay on the right side of things here as I've had to research and contract a fair amount of this type of stuff going back
a couple of homes and 12-13 years so just sharing a point of view.
 

SCAudiophile

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Sep 11, 2010
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Greer South Carolina (USA)
Any electrician certified to make an electrical installation in health services or laboratories should be able to carry this type of work. When I rebuilt my house I had the new ground measured. Many people ignore that the best part of a separate power supply is not the dedicated neutral and hot, but the dedicated ground wire!

Power mains is not rocket science or magic. But audiophiles are a special community - I have no doubt that subjectively some of us would prefer the sound associated to poor or poluted mains.
Great post.....
 

adyc

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This should tell you something about the value of all those reviews :rolleyes:! Getting your electricity right and eliminating hum and buzz is basic stuff!

david
I also have the same questions. How valid are his reviews if all start from bad electricity?
 
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Al Stewart

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I recall Fremer says in the piece in Stereophile that the whole thing (including the consulting time) is approximately $15K.
 
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microstrip

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wil

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Any electrician certified to make an electrical installation in health services or laboratories should be able to carry this type of work. When I rebuilt my house I had the new ground measured. Many people ignore that the best part of a separate power supply is not the dedicated neutral and hot, but the dedicated ground wire!

Power mains is not rocket science or magic. But audiophiles are a special community - I have no doubt that subjectively some of us would prefer the sound associated to poor or poluted mains.
Rex has been very helpful to me in cleaning up some of the connections in my Mains Panel and advice on getting a more solid ground connection.

Interestingly, as I was in the process of reconnecting the ground, I took a listen to my system with the ground completely disconnected and then re-connected (with resistance of 14 ohms). The Audio was Identical un connected and connected. Go figure. I suppose the effect of the grounding can vary from system to system. And this was after I spent a full week burying ground rods under thousands of lbs of Bentonite clay (a couple of years ago). But even if, as in my case, the ground doesn't seem to effect the audio, it's of course good to have a correct safety earth ground.

I also rented out Rex's Fluke scope. It's a nice device with an excellent large screen readout. Pics below of voltage waveforms and harmonics. The waveform that looks the most even at the peaks was taken around 6 am. The other is typical all through the day. I also shut off every circuit breaker in the house and separate listening room one by one to see if anything would effect the waveform, but it stayed steady, so apparently nothing here is having an adverse effect on power quality. (if I'm interpreting this correctly).
 

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